Greetings one and all... Hope 2006 is shaping up well for you all so far.

An interesting thread.

@ All - I have found this topic interesting, and certainly believe that for whatever reason, a number of black women show signs of adopting "european standards of beauty."

I applaud a pretty black woman using relaxer/bleach/blush/etc, if it genuinely suits them. Its important in all areas that we as a people don't limit ourselves by refusing to use anything that white people used first. Its not like europe hasn't "borrowed" its fair share of African ingenuity (another topic!) The issue is that we must not dishonour or deny ourselves at a fundamental level while doing so.

The sad thing is when I see a black women who would be stunning but has relaxed and bleached her hair, and looks like a frizzy blonde wreck! What a waste!

Ladies that relax/bleach/blush/etc, if it genuinely suits you, go for it, dye your hair blue if you feel like it! You don't have to answer to anyone over this issue. But we all owe it to ourselves and to our people to be real, to confront and deal with any insecurities/prejudices/etc we may have about being black.

So ladies if you do any of the above, AND it doesn't suit you (I'm not talking - "these colours clash" doesn't suit you, I'm talking "why would any self-respecting woman do that to herself" doesn't suit you - I know you know the difference... You have to ask yourself why you're doing it? Guys that do must ask ourselves why we respond to it?

These are weighty questions - not to be dismissed lightly. Its better to do some soul searching and realise it wasn't necessary (a little of soul searching is good for you) than to waste years living in ignorance of yourself...

@ Thoth, you can that see to a point I agree with you. But we don't get anywhere by JUST talking about the problem. Any ideas for a solution?

In my opinion, black celebrities (who are, generally speaking, catering to a predominantly white audience) are the worst group for this kind of behaviour (and I don't care what anyone says - Tyra looks appalling in that photo!) and the extent to which there is pressure on them as celebrities to appear 'european' is an issue.

If a very talented black singer who is told by her record label that she needs a new image and is given a whole team of people who dress her, do her make up, hair and basically decide her style - its hard for her to say no.

Maybe when it comes down to it, she's prepared to do whatever it takes to succeed' as a singer even if it means compromising where hair and make-up are concerned.

If this is a source of the problem, then the solution is forging an affluent culture (somewhere in the world) that appreciates and rewards black people who are proud of being black.

Incidentally, I think that would solve a lot of the problems that black people face today.

Penny for your thoughts?

* By the way, I don't really think 1/4 of black women going natural would make much difference... Most black women that I know do go natural from time to time - I don't see why we should tell them that they have to stay natural the whole time?

@ Abissinia and anyone who disagrees with Thoth on his 2 points, I would personally back them up as follows:

1) "Women of all ethnic groups and persuasions are always the most faithful to their own"

Men when looking for women, generally speaking (exceptions being those who have beliefs and standards regarding women that they are seriously committed to - and while that could sound like many or most men, it sure isn't!) take a comparatively shallow approach relative to women, or as somebody put it here, think with their little head.

Women, again generally speaking, tend to consider more factors than men before getting involved. Wise. One of these factors will certainly be culture if not race.

Pop culture obviously influences things too, 5 years back it seemed like the cool thing in Britain was for white girls to go with black guys, now black women are having their turn on the merry-go-round - but most people who think about it realise, that's all it is - an interracial merry-go-round that forms part of an extremely effective divide-and-rule policy that has been pursued by all sorts of groups since the first Jamaicans set foot in England...

In short, I don't think black women are more loyal to black men for any other reason than that I give women more credit for thinking before they jump into relationships... Maybe you believe I'm overestimating women.

2) Black men, in general, have not adopted a White standardas theattractive man, therefore have not falsely conceded aesthetic inferiority as too many of our beautiful Black women already have.

I'm not as convinced about this point as the other, but in agreement with Dark Prince re: Kofi Olomide being 1 in a million. Honestly, are you sure he's not related to MJ?

I have all sorts of problems with black male culture - commercial hip-hop is getting sleazier, its getting almost as repetitive as that house trash that they play in places I like to avoid! Violence and crime is not sufficiently condemned, and is regularly promoted. It shouts N***a every 5 words like that word needs any more publicity. However, I don't really think you can accuse black male celebrities of delivering a message to black youth that looking white is sexy. The few who do look and act white (Tiger Woods, Taye Diggs, etc) are considered geeky and strange.

On the other side of the coin, I would say that most mainstream black female celebrities are closer to delivering the message "white is sexy" to girls, or at least "black is beautiful - but only once you've had a relaxer!" I'm not saying that all black female celebrities should go natural all the time - but why is Lauryn Hill (saw the fugees were in December) the only high-profile black female celebrity I can think of that regularly goes natural in public?

@ All

Interesting topic - but ultimately we need to be dealing in solutions.

On an individual basis, we can all do what we can not to glorify the European concept of beauty I won't call it a standard again as no one should feel pressure to measure up to it.

As a group I think we need to form a prosperous black culture somewhere on this planet that values and rewards people who are black and proud. Pockets of this certainly exist, but we must unite, become stronger and make our voice heard.