astmartins - it's the difference between narrowing the goalposts and shifting them. Believe me I have a rooted respect for Kunjufu but the problem I'm seeing here is as long as we deviate from the root then I can guarantee given a one to one with Trevor Philips he too will feel completely justified and vindicated in the approach he takes.

If this is a debate of what that root is then fine. If it's a debate to say the root is right in principle but is unfeasible in practise then equally fine. If we have got to the point where priority now is to mitigate as opposed to eliminate than again I'm equally intrigued and relatable to these concepts.

It's why I started the 'in white hands' thread just to iron out where our different thought processes are stemming from but even then, it will take a lot to convince me that any one tried, tested and failed measure is worth defending over another which is why principles tackling the root causes are still at the core for me.