Kunjufu. Don't disagree with anything you have said, with perhaps a qualification. Not in any order. I agree with you, that anyone adopting an conveinient radical or anti imperialist stance is offensive.

The worse example that comes to mind is Idi Amin, and how he used the Ugandan Asian issue. Throw, or force them out by all means, if the issue is of fundamental or strategic importance; but not a conveinient tactic to appeal to deep sentiments about the role of this group in the Ugandan, the African and Pan African world.

There are people who I have met,who seriously will look you in the eye and tell you Amin was an African hero.....So we agree there.

Concerning the treatment of white posters, my view is not based on whether they are foul- mouthed idiots, or geniuses who could elevate our discussions to a higher level. But a basic position. I have no doubt that anybody, black or white, who comes here talking foolishness, on any subject will meet their nemesis-no doubt whatsover. But I think you are correct, once you accept somebody in your home, or space, to overtly abuse them is bad breeding amongst other things.

Hence, why I prefer not to engage them directly...because I know amongst other things they will offend and while I am through self preservation and just basic intelligence have to tolerate them in their world, don't want them in mine-if I can help it.

But regarding Mugabe, [and I am eagerly awaiting Shings response as she has the inside coo];,and like you there are lots of things I would like to know, both good about important work and developments taking place; as well as serious issues about Mugabe's performance.

But one key factor I think in explaining Mugabe's priorities, and goes to the heart of your question about his 20 years in power, I think has to go to consolidating his own power base. I say that not because of any special knowledge, but by observing what radicals, or leaders generally, attempt to do; and it makes sense.

The Russian revolution, and the events leading up to it for almost a century, really helps to inform my view and we can see it every where we look. On one dimension it can appear to be a lust for personal power; and in too many cases is. But looking at it another way. In order for a new regime in a country characterised by instability, or potential instability, or with an immature political culture and institutions, always seek to ensure for good obvious reasons, that their party or organisation which they genuinely believe for good reason, is the agency for stabilty and change, has a duty to ensure that institution is strong and able to survive.

This is where the complex debate, where Lenin distigusished himself; and at the same time unwittingly created the demise of the revolution, by creating the machinary that eventually fell into the hands of Stalin. The dictatorship of the people, the Bolshevick Party, provided the discipline, the organisation, expertise, political education and worldview, and human resources to both develop the country and defend it from external enemies, which were many and powerful.

However, at what point in time, does a leader, if ever give up that power, or bring about the transition to different more inclusive forms of government is another question ,and I think in the African context shaped by the extenal environment to a large degree. Look at Mandela. He went, only once he was satisfied that the future of the ANC was in hand.

So experience elsewhere, can help us to fill in some of the important detail which we would like to know. If a leader is the principle unifying factor, holding a whole range of other leaders together; which is how leadership structures operate, the man cannot always simply slip out of the scene, because that team will collapse and I have seen it first hand.

One or two guys, can bring and keep numbers of talented, ego centric guys together. But once they are gone, internal warfare will break out. A bit like Castro, who is a historic and unifying figure, as Mandella was and still is. The history of the mafia and organised crime will demonstrate this a hundred fold...niceone.gif

Greetings Untitled, you refer to success story, whose success? One cannot argue that the situation is a good one, but are you advocating the return of colonialism? If that is the case we have nothing to say to each other, if on the other hand you are saying things could have been handled better, and there is still more to do – no argument. You mention 100 years of white rule, I suggest to read, “How Europe Underdeveloped Afrika�, by Walter Rodney. It is not the only book on the subject, but after reading it, I believe we’ll have a more informed conversation. In closing, we have no one else, but ourselves to look to. (Seems like I missed a good deal of the action while the system was down – I’m back!) – PEACE.

Kunjufu....thanks for your even handed approach...I appreciate it.

Mr FredBlack...Thanks for responding so candidly,I have learned a lot from your standpoint and can understand it.You are obviously a man with a lotof experience of the way things are,and not how we would like them to be.While not always agreeing with your opinion I respect it...and a lot of it makes sense also.

Shing.....A quick look at Amnesty International web site tells a different story to the one you catagorically state.A visit to Food & Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations mentions food shortages rather than starvation and foodaid needed for 5.5 million people.....Why ban foriegn media from the country? Why the government closure of independent newspapers?

A small anecdotal illustration of my own experience from a short visit to Zimbabwe and the attitudes that may be part of the problem.....Whilst walking in Harare with my wife we were accosted by a man selling trinkets..I declined politely saying I had no money and had already bought some earlier.He would not let us go without appealing to my wife as his sister to get me to buy....He became insistant that I buy to the extent that I remonstrated with him to leave us alone please.My wife advised me to ignore him and to walk away faster...I said no ...if need be I would call a policeman to intervene.We managed to leave him with my wife dragging me awayby my arm.Later she explained he was a war veteran...and if I had called the police the chances are the police would side with the veteran...and a bigger problem would have ensued.The point I am trying to high light is that the people feel helpless against the powers that be....the police cant be relied on to be impartial...even in such a trivial situation like that.My wife remains amazed at election time that our neighbours display political posters in their windows....is astounded by TV programmes like Question Time.....too many questions.

Geoff

Fred, Ijexa, Shing, Obal and any other interested parties: I'm going to start a thread on how we respond to and treat Europeans who post here... I think the debate on Zimbabwe is too important to be diverted from its present focus.. so Please any further points on Geoff should be posted on the Thread that I will start sometime today..

Kunjufu. Over and out. Message understood.blktype

@African. My brother and forgive me if I assume incorrectly your sex. I read what you said about Amin and much of what you say is not new. In fact, many of my elders and seniors who went to the 6 Pan African Congress in Tanzania were wined and dined by Amin, not to long after he had ejected Asians from his country. Not an act, that I find disfavour with, nor the rationale layed out by Amin which was very clear.

These people have and had no loyalty to the country, were essentially parastic on the African majority and had been though out colonialism, contributed little in terms of tax, or national service and kept their British passport along with money safely under their beds, just in case.

However, Idi Amin Dada was a tool in every sense of the Brtish and his career in the Kings East African Regiment is a clear illustration of his role in murdering and suppressing Africans fighting for their liberation ,of which he was proud of. Amin was a proud zealot of the British military and crystalised in his Sandhurst training.

Amins role in the suppression and destruction of the Kenyan Land and Freedom Movement, commonly referred to as Mau Mau, is well documented, as was the torture, betrayal and double dealing which lead the the capture of its leader the great Dedan Kimanthi. Amin is the enemy of progressive and radical Africans, of that there can be no doubt.

We can cite numerous figures in history who have done things which are admirable. Stalin for one, did great things, big thing and because of him the Soviet Union survived its most gravest challenges. Saddamm Hussaine, had big ambiton in terms of the industrial/scientific and educational and military spheres, and played the west like suckers. But we have to understand these people in the long and the round, to realise whether we speak of Stalin, Hussaine or Amin, as thugs, murders and men characterised by little principle, save maintaining their own power by inflicted callous violence and torture to the innocent and weak.

Because of this we have to hail President Julius Nyerere who for his many life long consistently progressive actions, got it damn right when he ordered Tanzanian forces to enter Uganda to arrest, or take out Amin and to stop once and for all his destruction of Ugandan society and peoples.

Fredniceone.gif

clp)Shing, thank you for that my sister. It is so obvious that it doesn't really need repeating; that you can only ever know what is going on in a country, properly, unless you are in that region; and have the intellectual and other resources to make sense of it.


But I am reassured, as I argue above that we don't need first hand detaied knowledge to make sense of general patterns, if not almost rules of leadership, political/organisational behaviour of African Caribbean leaders to make sense of what is taking place in Zimbabwe. So your details put a smile on my face, because most of what you said is more or less what I have guessed or would have deduced based on what we all know.

Just touch on some key points you made.

1. Mugabe has not suddenly jumped on the issue of land, as it was of many key issues which the Government has been working on. Establishing the democratic instutions of the country still a work in progress took over 10 years of concerted effort at every level. So that one factor alone ,never mind the other aspects of Lancester House, of which land reform was but one, albeit important explains much.

Any new African, or Caribbean government established in those circumstances, have a million demands from the first day of office, in an external environment characterised by hostile and more powerful forces seeking to undermine it from every angle. We saw the same with Nkrumah, Castro, the Manley socialist government in Jamaica, who had the CIA and the US foreign Department committed to destoying Manley by any means necessary.

2. As I mentioned in my last post, we have to go back to the origins of the idea of the single party state in the modern era, and the role and ideas of Lenin and why he thought correctly this was the only way forward. Crudely put, Lenin realised that the preconditions for western style democracies of more stable and mature countries simply did not apply in particular parts of the world, given their circumstances. Under those conditions to talk, or infer, other forms of democracy was tantamount to suicide; and handing the nation over to its enemies, who would exploit the situation and re impose themselves.

In Russia, the majority were poor ,could not afford to finance independent parties of any significance,which meant faciliating the hegemony of 'bourgoise' parties, who would overturn the revolution; and impose the old order even more tougher, given its purported democratic/reformist features ,which had more legitimacy than the old rule of the Tsars. Foreign monies would finance parties to promote their agendas.

So Mugabe being in power for 20 years, is not an automatic issue of concern if the aforementioned is taken into consideration. For example, I forget how long President Julius Nyerre was in power for, but it was about if not longer than 20 years. But Nyerre was a popular and much loved man for all the right reasons....

3. The paucity of the Zimbawe government's communications strategies, as mentioned before is a common African/Caribbean governmental problem and its root is to be found in the human resources problem that most leaders are faced with from day one.

African/Caribbean leaders have more problems facing them from day one in office, and less resources and structures/mechanisms at their disposal. In fact this is a common charactersitic of black organisational life, whether in Britian or the US for that matter.

A leader will have a range of extremly challenging and complex problems facing them, but only a small number of people who are readily at the appropriate level of whatever you want to call it, who can handle or provide leadership in these areas. I can say from here, that communicating with the outside world was not nor should it have been an immediate pressing priority for Mugabe, or most leaders taking power. They have to deal with the immediate things to hand eg developing and improving political relations with adversaries in creating national harmony etc..

So leaders do not have a crystal ball, or an infinite number of organisational geniuses hanging around just in case, as these people have more than enough work to do. It is a truism that black men/women have to work much harder than their white counterparts and nowhere is this more evident than in the world of governance and leadership.

This is where people who are from these African and Caribbean countries living abroad have an important responsiblity if not duty to contribute to the human resources of their country.

Let me part with an example which demonstrates the human resource pressure which Caribbean/African leaders are faced with. I know a brother from my island who is a very senior civil servant. Highly educated, organisationally and administratively gifted and absolutely committed to his nations and regions development. He was arrested in Grenada, like many of my country men resisting the US invasion.

If you speak to his staff, or those who know him; and they tell you about the type of hours this brother puts in, and indirectly his staff, the man's brilliance and competence, and you compare it to his measley salary and conditions etc, most of us from the West would laugh.

Because of the brother's ability,[including his capacity to work across disciplines and policy areas] his Prime Minister, and Ministers, rely on him; and of course his work load is four times that of his peers. The reasons for this situation is simple to understand. But how many people does the Prime Minister, have around and under him of this ability and committment?

So as I have said elsehwere, the problems facing Prime Minister Mugabe, are not unique to him, or Zimbabwe;neither are the tactics used to attempt to constrain or descredit him. We have been here plenty times before and I trust have gained some wisdom from this collective experience.

As I said, I support Mugabe, albeit not uncritically as that is not in the gift of any man; and would hope that any one with a disengenous agenda, will not feel they can find a resting place on this Forum to spread their foolishness.

clp)Shing about the MDC. If my scanner was hooked up, I would post one of the documents given to me. It details the various attempts to assassinate Mugabe and other aspects of their POSTIVE ACTION CAMPAIGN, as they call it, some of which you mentioned.

But one story shared with us by a sister, who I think is the minister for Education or something[will have to check]. Dr something. She told us that in Parliament the MDC rep is accompanied every day by a white man, who sits there taking notes of every word said. When particular issues arise, which their black boy obvioulsy had not been briefed on, or anticipated coming up ,he would unashamadley look at the white man, for directions ,in the form of a nod etc.

People were stunned to hear that these whites did not even hide the fact that they ran the MDC, except of course when presenting themselves to the western world.

Shing: thank you for your indepth and informative responses..

1. On the points raised in the first paragraph..although I acknowledge your partial acceptance of my argument.. for it's not enough.. I'm therefore going remark my point on this issue again..

The goings on in Zimbabwe has in my view very serious ramifications for all Africans everywhere but especially in neighbouring Azania and definately in the UK.. Whatever happens in Zimbabwe can and will affect me whether I'm Zimbabwean or not.. Therefore it is NOT fair to say I or anyone else not of imersed in Zimbabwean micro politics cannot or should not comment regardless of the depth of their overall knowledge..that is NOT reasonable..

2. The points you raised on the one part state issue or on point and I cannot disagree with you at all.. Especially as you quite rightly point out.. Tha this is a Class struggle not a race struggle.. I would have gone on to develop my point along this line had you not beaten me to the punch.. also picking up on your brilliant anaylsis of tryng to mount a credible opposition to the Zanu PF.. I have to bring you right back to the obvious point..Why with this seemingly autocratic position could he not have forced this agenda sooner?

That said I entirely concede your point that those African leaders seeking to Build African rather than Europe or America.. Have been undermined, or assassinated, like Lumumba, Nkrumah and many others too many to,list.. I also changing tack did say in my previous post to you, that I agree Henry olonga and the MDC are Black Neo colonialist Apologists..so we are absolutely agreed on this point..

3. On the issue of Land reform we are again both agreed on the history that influenced this event and the triggers for the current rush for land reform ie the war veterans occupation of white farms.. It also appears that you slightly agree that Mubage was being opportunistic in his tactic of utilising the issue of land reform to remain in power..

When I talked about 'sudden' conversion to this issue naturally i did not mean that he suddenly woke to this idea, that is obviously silly.. However it is clear that his motives for making this a central issue of reelection and his arguement for staying in power..rests not on what best for the people but is clearly a case of self preservation..

This impression is further reinforced when you comment that thecriteria for redistrbutionappears to be first come first served in terms of reclaiming land.. Also if as you now point out that there is not information infrastructure in place to communicate Mugabe's intentions and that tight state controls are in place then it seems to me further evidence of an ill concieved and ill judged doctrine that appears to be controlling Mugabe rather than Mugabe controling it..

Either way I'm clear on this subject if I believed regardless of methodology that Mugabe's intension where for the people I would support him..regardless of whether he was squeeky clean or not.. The fact is Shing I have not seen, heard, or read a single fact that leads me to believe that Mugabe is idealogically sound.. or that he is a Principled African leader in the mould of Nkrumah, Tuore, Lamumba etc etc.... everything I see or hear leads me to the belief that he is no better than Bush or Blair..especially when he says to Blair that he should keep to the Uk and leave him to HIS Zimbabwe or word to that effect..thast had overtones of Colonialism of the worse kind..

To all...

I am reluctant to respond here after the various arguments to my comments...most are based on the fact that I am white.Cant argue with that,if the whole topic is due to whiteness as opposed to blackness I would disappear into the ether....but I would suggest it is far from that,and the race topic is a smokescreen.

Geoff

Shing......

My anecdote was meant to illustrate the difference in my expectations from a police force in a democratic country and the acceptance of my wife when faced by an unreasonable demand....at no time did I suggest he couldnt request some tradewith meor call that request truamatic or ask forreturn to colonial times....and I believe you push your response too far.

Wemight all have been approached in theUK by ladies "selling" lucky heather...and declined their offer...and if they pressure you,youcould reasonably hail the nearest policeman and be spared any further embarrasment.Or perhaps the fact that I was white you would want to preclude me from the protection of the police....even that I could handle...but my wife's acceptance that she had no recourse to a non political unbiased just policeforce while walking inher national capital.......felt very strange.Now you will reply concerning the racist police in the UK....and I am defeated.....but think on....In broad daylight midday in Oxford street you a black Zimbabwean is harrased by a street trader....would you feel free to hail a whitebobby without the fear of a beating in some cell?

Its not about the UK anyway ...its about the acceptance of the status quo by Zimbabwean citizens,caught up in a situation were you are for the government or anti zimbabwean anti african pro european inlfuence pro colonialism etc.etc.Basically to put it simply its not black and white figuratively,but many shades of grey.

Geoff