Shing my sister you never fail to please. I wanted to hear the response to some of the detailed points raised by Geof, some which seem reasonable from an uninformed point of view. I spent a little time trying to explain the different reasons the government would do what he claimed if true. But you have put more than enough meat on the bone.

While I am not in the position to challenge anything you have said, nor wish to as it goes, I would like to qualify or suggest something concerning your comments, that Lancaster House and how it is fundamentally at the root of this.

Can I suggest that Robert Mugabe is not to blame and I know that as I was at the pre Lanchester House agreement private meeting held with Pan Africansists who were very close to ZANU and worked very close to them for years leading up to independence. Many of my close brothers are very thankful for the Zimbawean wives who thy met via this work, and many of our close friends and comrades from the region.

The critical issue you raised was not in Mugabe's hands who wanted to fight to the finish, it was our fat friend Nkomo, and ZAPU, who did not want to fight and were threatening all kinds of nonsense. ZAPU people were also heavily implicated in the assassination of the great General Josiah Tongagara, who as you may remember was Mugabe's right hand man.

Even Joseph Tekere[hope my spelling is anywhere close] a close allie of Mugabe was going beserk ,even in Manchester young people like me could see the strains. Mugabe eventually, if I am not mistaken fired his old comrade which must have been painful, because Tekerre[Minister for Education] wanted to fight to the finish.

Mugabe did not go to Lancester House with a united leadership and people behind him. He faced potential civil war,[ with South Africa cooperating with white Rhodesia and a whole heap of white mercenearies in Portuguese Africa waiting for hire, not to mention England]. Shing trust me Zimbabwe would not have won that fight and our own people who know about these matters came to that conclusion, before Mugabe said anything which gave an inkling.

The superior fighting experience and resources of the whites, who would throw their weight behind Nknomo would have destroyed the country with little concrete gain. So let us do Mugabe some justice, because he impressed all of us no end as a fighting man and bush leader; who would have taken that option, if it was a realistic one, with good odds in achieving the desired outcome.

Fred

Shing to say that I've not been able to respond to your good questions yet but I certainly intend to address then time willing...so hold tight ok!!

Shing...

You write as if the Zimbabwean economy was not helped at all by the growth of as you say "flowers instead of maize".......‘renewable short term leases’ as you say would have been met with resistance from white farmers...and of course they haven't resisted the current scheme?

I think that signing the Lancaster agreement was the biggest crime of the Zim govt. Simply because it meant that by agreeing to ‘respect’ existing property rights (white farmers)....the respectful government has turned its respect on its head now....my question is for what reason now?

Independent newspaper presses bombed...by whom?’ ‘Independent’ newspapers like Daily News? Bombed by whom? Hopefully by patriotic Zimbabweans.

Independent media ...full stop...radio TV and yes papers..all and any papers...and the "independent" judiciary...police...independent as in able to openly critisise,or debate.I have never read The Daily News...but have read Private Eye over here and watched deeply critical programmes....and yes they make mistakes, a price paid for a free media.

‘...why no Zanu meetings? Lack of money? or lack of support?’
Clever reply....but no answer....why? We do like our beer also will MDC get a round in for me?

‘Or are the expected aims worth the hunger..... financial degradation...loss of life...loss of liberties? ‘

Very easy from your ivory tower flitting from UK to Zim to say exaggeration...how many ex farm workers are now homeless? and the knock on effect of just that alone......If I overstate it...why the concernsby all theinternational agencies that keep an eye on such problems? Are they all biased to such an extent?

Shall we talk of Northern Ireland here? or Guantanamo Bay? It is a black forum with the topic of Land ownership in Zimbabwe....My "worries" are due to the fact I married a Zimbabwean and briefly visitedyour beautifulcountry....nothing sinister.I have no "connection" to another African country that may need my concerns.

Twice I was in Zim and there were shortages of essential products such as sugar and then the police were finding plant owners stockpiling supplies. For what reason?

So itneeded to be taken over ?....reneging on previous assurances...there is a pattern forming here? Couldnt some procedure be put in place to solve these "shortages" We in the UK have experienced shortages from time to time.


Their motives and agenda are based on their own colonial interests and so ANY argument (even if true) they bring to the debate must be taken with a pinch of salt.

I cannot reason with that sort of logic....(its like argueing with my wife...womens logic)

You gloss over certain things as if they are not worth consideration....I seriously hope Mugabe is genuine and has matters under control...but I have grave concerns.On the big canvas of history he is an African hero...right now....lets trust he remains so in the future.

If ALL the promises of land reform turn out to be a sham the people of Zimbabwe not whitehall or washington will sort it out.

If ALL the promises of land reform turn out to be a sham the people of Zimbabwe not Whitehall or Washington....will suffer the most....If some of the fears materialise they will suffer most also



Geoff

@Shing who said:"@Fredblack
'Shing my sister you never fail to please.'

Most people light up a cigarette about now but I don't smoke.

Think we might have to light up probably more than one. What do you think sis.....[Smile]...?


Fredbanana.gif

Shing. Maximum and utmost respect my sister for those two postsblkclapblkclapblkclapblkclapblkclapblkclapblk clapblkclapblkclap

Life is good, as I was praying for your return on this issue and girl you have appeared and firing from all guns. A true patriot and solidier. We needed at least one Zimbabwean with some indepth knowldege to enter this fray, as I doubt many of us, who are non Zims, have the detailed information to put Geoffs arguments to bed.

As he has a bizzarre strong motivation on this matter. Hmmmm, probably one of the luxuries of being white I suppose, is that you have plenty time and energy to waste in the affairs of people who are not like you and who you have little in common with...

I wondered why you bother going to so much lenghts to address this indivdiual. But in the round, I can appreciate you would being doing your home and country a serious diservice to allow this nonsense not to go unchallenged root and branch.

Without wanting to encourage people who have no real stake in black people's business, other than protect what they have, there were two key points that Geoff raised that had my blood boiling and shows my man's white world view, and gives me small comfort when examing my stance on interacting with these people.

Both points you have covered elloquently, but I would like to go over again, to demonstrates the mind set of such individuals.

1. The issue of food shortages in Zim and his comments on the matter, quite frankly was a joke. To compare food shortages in one of the most industrially and instiutionally and most developed/ stable social systems in the world, with what is taking place in Zimbabwe well......As far fetched as the person who compared Robert Mugabe with Saddamm Hussaine..Credibility killing, those types of remarks.

At the meeting I attended in London great detail was given about economic sabotage of the type you so well illustrated, and to think anyone could try that in this country is outrageous. Silly really...

2. This point is a conversation stopper for me, and is a typical white man's retort and illustrates their unquestioning acceptance of their own racist society and the workings of its institutions.

He suggested surely all the international agencies cannot all be biased against Zimbabwe. It is at this point, that I terminate the discussion. Its a bit like having an informed discussion on the workings of government/political institutions with an O level student when the issues involved are Masters level and beyond. Too much teaching to do, to reduce the knowledge deficit.

What white man, has not responded in exactly the same way in a range of fundamental policy areas when dealing with black people. "Surely not all the police are racist", "not all judges are biased", "not all papers discriminate in its depiction of black people" rah di rah di rah....

It is obvious to me before Geoff and his peeps want to gate crash black people's things, they should do us the courteousy of ensuring they have read at least a couple of books of which there are tons, on the issue of ORCHASTRATION OF PUBLIC CONSENT, OR THE POLTICAL MANAGEMENT OF PUBLIC CONCENSUS.

How is it, a policeman in say Northern England who has never been to Broadwater Farm in Tottenham, can give you an acccount, and express attitudes and feelings on the matter which are exactly the same as one involved in the issue and based in Tottenham?. If my man does not know how his own institutions work,[both formally and informally behind the scenes-he has no business here wasting our time.

How do goverments prepare their countries and the various institutions to support its decision to go to war?. How does a country like England, and the US, make its enemies the enemies of the rest of the world? Did Geoff not notice prior to the Iraq war, all international bodies coming out one by one condemning Iraq, [all of a sudden, or a case of damn good timing..?]. Just coincidence that every governmnet and NGO suddenly starts publishing reports ,many now known to be bogus, doing what..? Lending support and justification for the desired course of action. Do we forget how a Mphil/Doctorate student's research suddenly finds itself transformed from something rotting in a library somewhere, to the final and most authoratitive word on the issue of Iraq weapons of mass destruction?

Man I could not believe the foolishness. It would appear to me, that Geoffs, arguments in sum can be explained as thus. Consisting of a collection of press and media generated untruths, premised on his own white common sense assumptions[implicitly racist paradigmn] with a couple of not unreasonable questions and observations if the aforementioned are taken on face value, which only a fool can do.....when side stepping his blatant double standards...

Very very interesting..

offtopic.gif

Shing thanks for your 'little' present above, will keep it in a very safe place..

Fred

FredBlack...

My comment aboutshortages here in the UK was meant to show that even here in the stable economy etc. that you discribed there are still times when supply outstrips demand....for many reasons...but it doesn't mean Tate& Lyle gets nationalised (remember the panic buying a few years ago?)....it was not meant to show that hunger was the same here as there...or circumstances are the same.But Mr Mugabe was publically known to say such things were not on the agenda....it is his crediblity I questioned.And nothing you or Shing says can alter the fact the man has broken his word....of course it could be another tactic,and construed as OK in the greater struggle.

You also keep refering back to a comment about Saddam Hussien and Mugabe being similar (a statement I didn't make..and one you conceded by the way) Could we also be getting misinformation about him too......I have only the same sources to rely on that are misinforming me and the general public about Mugabe?

Just a thought to ponder

Geoff

Shing..........

It appears that "intervention" means more to you than I....I remember a time when the currency taken out of the UK was strickly controled....an "intervention" to control the economy.Surely a nation that has been independent for 20 plus years can put into force "interventions" that limit the forex transfer from its domain and other inequalities.

The UK government reneged on its involvment in the land reform issue...you and I can question its motives,but from that point Zimbabwe must react. All I am basically saying is Zimbabwe has reacted wrongly ........over reacted.The arguement that the means satisfy the end over rides anything I or anyone can say...any logical solution.If any Zimbabwean want a different route they are puppets of the colonialist masters...or poorly educated and need to be lead.Allwhite farmers have Swiss bank accounts that are growing fatter daily with no direct loyalty or interest in the development of the country....is that not a gross a generalisation..... misinformation? No doubt there are the majority who would like to have stayed as the ruling class...but man is the most adaptable of creatures...white and black.There has always been a system of apaternalisticelite in this country...we bow and curtsey to our "betters"...some of the last bastions remain in the country gentry...(go on a rough shoot in the highlands of Scotland...but maybe you would be barred)...its a dieing breed of people....not nice to us low born whites either... but its just there...an anachronism...a throw back to our great past.The only difference here is they are not as recognisable as in Africa...we are all white.

The problems in Africa are financial colonialism...a few or more well drafted laws would help to solve the attitudes that subjugate the indegenious people.The West has no influence in yourduely electedparliaments...I can understand the resentment the suspiscions the sensitivity...but why use a sledge hammer to crack a nut....a nut that you want to enjoy.

Geoff

Shing please.......

I make a statement..........‘The West has no influence in your duely elected parliaments...’
And you come back with............Have you never heard of the MDC? ...When was the MDC duely elected?

I say.....I remember a time when the currency taken out of the UK was strickly controled....an "intervention" to control the economy.Surely a nation that has been independent for 20 plus years can put into force "interventions" that limit the forex transfer from its domain and other inequalities.
You dont respond on this.....


I say ....you and I can question its motives,but from that point Zimbabwe must react......You question my motivation....not the point I am makeing....... that a reactionor intervention would have been appropriate back then....And so my mantra is very much the basis of my unease.....Why now?

I can repeat my self over and over and over....If it is right to have land reform...and I have agreed it is needed....it is merely the timeing and the true motivation that is in question....but as I said earlier If the end justifies the means....

Geoff

@Shing who said

"Don't get me wrong peeps,
I have my own criticisms of Mugabe and the land reform process but in the onslaught of western neo-colonialism/blatant ignorance and racism, these become sidelined by the fact that the western endgame is not to raise the living standards of ordinary Africans. This includes Zimbabwe folks. The west at its most benevolent or humane towards Africa can only manage a policy of ALLEVIATION and not ERADICATION to problems which often have a root in their Garden of Eden. The eradication must be left to our own African leaders".


My feelings in part, Shing] and what I stated in my first post on this issue. I am not in the position to have all the information I would like. But I know enough, and I definitely aware [as I have seen it too often] the various strategies at play to underimine another African/Caribbean leader.

So there is no way, as I said previously that I am going to give any credence to western propanda, or appologists. If Mugabe is what they[whites and their friends] say, the Zimbabwean people who fought and died for their freedom and land, will have no qualms to do what has to be done to remove him, by any means.

So can't see what's the drama about. But small small mercys, the issue brought sister Shing back in full affect, and my man got her aroused[hmmm] so the ploy worked[evil smile....]. WEll done Geoff exectuted like a true pro......

Fredniceone.gif

President Mugabe has convinced many people of good will, here in the USA, that his stand on land redistribution demonstrates his commitment to true Black majority rule in Zimbabwe. What is strikingly odd about this is that land redistribution could have been conducted over the last 10 years (for the first ten, due to the terms of the Lancaster House Agreements, there was little that could be done). In fact, it needed to happen. The demand for land by agricultural workers and farmers was a real initiative. While it is absolutely the case that the US and Britain were to assist in subsidizing the land redistribution (and in fact reneged on this promise) the issue of land redistribution was largely ignored by President Mugabe's government until a mass opposition movement arose that challenged his, until then, undisputed leadership role. It was only at that juncture that President Mugabe championed immediate land redistribution, but in a manner that benefited not the mass of agricultural workers and farmers, but instead first and foremost the party faithful of the ZANU-PF-the ruling party.



Not my opinion ....a comment from this site....http://www.blackcommentator.com/51/51_zim_fletcher.html.........

which is the basicaly the same as I have been trying to say...but less eloquently.

I know it is only an opinion ,and from a western perspective you may say.....an interesting site..........http://www.blackcommentator.com/51/51_zim.html

Geoff

@All. Well my man Geoff is clearly a dedicated solidier to a cause. Blindly so, but clearly dedicated to a cause in other people's country. Such is his dedication and faith in his cause celibre, he clearly does not listen or understand what he has been clearly told.

Hence if he did, he would not have wasted his time posting his last contribution. He may claim he is posting to educate others, but I see nobody coming forward to thank him, or defend him, which is not diffucult to understand given this is a black forum and he is arguing something which I suggest is only music to the majority white ear.

Any African/Black person, from whatever part of the world, I am confident would feel very suspicious and uneasy about his his arguments, and determination in this context, if it were there country in question. So not really suprise the black Defense force have not rushed to his rescue.

He posts a tract from the American based Black Commentator, which is supposed to advance the discussion how....?Oh because they are black me thinks.

If Geoff was following the argument he would have realised that argument got trashed long days. I stated during the Angola civil war, Africans abroad were supported the wrong side, because there was insufficient information coming from within the country from the good guys ,and the bad guys had their friend's churning out propaganda, just as the US and their friends in Haiti are doing this second.

American radicals sorry have historically had some bad expereinces supporting the wrong people like Sekou Sese Mobutu when he first came to power. I know people who met with Idi Amin, an international Pan African delegation, not knowing unlike their members back home that he was a tool of the enemy and mass murderer of African people. Information is power and so is disinformation.

Black women in the US swallowed the right wing conservative and white feminist line hook line and sinker over the Judge Clarence Thomas case, depiciting as some animal and Anita Hill some angel victim. I did not swallow it for a second, and thought both of them were extremely doddgy and playing race and sex games. Years later and reading some serious books on the matter, I was proven correct to the letter. The whole thing did not make sense from my experience or judgement. So a case of disinformation ably assisted by African Americans.

People like Alice Walker, and even god forbid Toni Morrison, had not even let two weeks pass and they were writing articles being sent world wide propagating the enemy agenda. The Democrats and Liberals did not want Thomas nominated, and the white feminist were having a fit, as he was conseravtive[white US breed and intractable coconut.].

No woman who claims she was seriously sexually harrassed, decides to follow the same boss when he is promoted not only once, but twice...They were having sex and her career was tied to his ,and when he dumped her for his white woman. Shit hit the fan...

Hill confessed to a white feminist friend who was well connected ,the latter put pressure on her, the rest is history...and Clarence Thomas was dead in the water..

So if Geoff thinks he is dealing with kids who have seen or experienced nothing like this before, he is making a serious mistake. Disinformation is the oldest tactic in war and governance is over 10,000 years old.

Another illustration of how black people are used to promote white propaganda can be seen by AllAfrica.Com. An alleged All African news and information service. It was brought to my attention, that most[if not a significant amount] of the news they deal with or disemmeinate comes from Rueters and other western media agencies..

So face it Geoff, we have been here before. I don't know why you are crying blood for Zimabweans and Zimbabwe. It is not your country. It is Shings country and I assume she has more invested in terms of blood, material and cultural than you. Furthermore on principle I will oppose you as an African defending anothers right to determine their people's fate.

God forbid, you pick up a woman from my country and then start trying to bring my government down. That is my job friend not yours. Strange logic that is. I think there is an interesting and salutory lesson there about African/Black women and white men and the rights they think access to a black woman gives them.

offtopic.gif
Shing stop flashing your butt at my man. I figured it out, that's what is doing it, and increasing his motivation and resolve. Now that I can understand as a motivating factor, because I am damn if I can work out what is driving him other than that. The usual white issues not withstanding of course....

Fredsmoking-devil