Well SoooFresh I judge him for his effect he had on my life. Even if his motive was to sleep with white women. He still stood up bravely in white america's face. Something that no other powerful black person besides Malcolm X did. For all I know if Malcolm had lived he would have supported the gay liberation movement and a lot of people would not have known why. Would this have caused me to look down upon him? No. Question his motives maybe, but still for the effect that he had I still would see him as a great man with flaws.

MLK's quest was more about sitting at the front of the bus with whites or sleeping with them, it was about the freedom to get an education, the freedom to vote, freedom to enjoy the rights of all americans which meant life itself instead of the 4/5ths of a man as we were declared to be. We were set free in 1865, but we were not fully freed until the 1960's. It is hard to separate who actually fought for our freedoms back in the 1960's. Again which makes me wonder how much Black American history you know. Not trying to be mean or insulting lil sister. Check this.

Edgar Ray Killen was convicted of murdering three civil rights workers from the 1960s in Mississippi. Did you know that two of those civil rights workers were white? I mean what made them risk their life in mississippi at that time when being called a ****** lover was worse than being black itself? You would be hanged alongside the black people you loved. Yet these two paid the ultimate sacrifice. Should I honor them less for advancing civil rights because they were white?



White people too worked in the civil rights movement. Look at a film again on a march and you will see white people marching as well and you will see some black people standing on the sidelines. Who was taking the bigger risk? The marching white people or black people standing on the sides scared to get involved? I don't believe all of white america view us as below them, but then again, I don't believe there is a double digit percentage that view us as equals either. Still saying, you have to look at MLK's logical platform to see it from his view. To say he was not a great man for cheating on his wife based on his principles as a Reverend, I can see, but to twist it because it was a white woman is just illogical to me. Then again, I have to factor in that you are a black woman and hate all black men who sleep with anyone that is not black.

Lil sis MLK remember was going for equality. Not African pride. I think that is what you fail to see. I mean I could say that Lumumba was a convicted thief 3 years before he became the leader of the Congo, which I am sure he was working toward African unity at that time as well, but should I think any less of his accomplishments because of his greed at the time? Do we know the whole story? The same as with MLK when it comes to a white media.............

BlueHoney: I respect you a lot, you have a different type of personality that is very unique and long may it continue..but in this instance I think you are being a bit unreasonable and unfair on Soofresh..

Her point is valid we don't have to agree with it or like but she does have a point on MLK.. our position therefore is to present evidence that will refute her view of MLK.. if WE can't then ultimately she is right about him and his principles..

I think the other personal stuff was uncalled for personally and as i know you dislike it when others do it to you..My feeling is you just leave off that and stick to the subject..

@ Safetyblitz

I have to bow to your knowledge or white leaders over there in the States, but I can claim not be aware of many examples over this side of the water. Again I am willing to be educated by those who have more knowledge than I of such facts. Mind you I am not really thatconcerned with finding examples of white leaders hankering after black.It does impact on the things I hold dear as much as when a black leader hanker after white.

However, before you get to wrapped up in my 'feelings' about MLK let me point out that I am using him really as an example of the 'Fundamental Principle' I referred to rather than just a object of my disdain......for I certainly do not hold him in disdain. It is just that for me his personal Greatness (as opposed to the things he made possible or the changes he influenced) is diminished because of his 'weakness' for white women. That is it pure and simple.

I think the evidence is fairly indisputable of his love of the white woman (damn, the man cheated again and again on his black wife with them), but I am not about to labour that point. And yes, I do make a distinction between him cheating with white women as opposed to black women. True, both are still an afront to his wife and on principle are no different. But a high a profile Black man standing as an icon for the cause of Black People whilst cavorting with white women isafundamentalelement in MY assessment of that person Greatness.This stands true whether it be MLK (who just happens to be the focus for the purpose of discussion) or any prominent black man, or indeed if it is visa versa with a black woman of prominence.

Listen, the character or nature of a person goes to the core and though we as human beings are apt to overlook the core issue and excuse many evils because a person is nice, rich, good-looking, has great teeth,does good charity work, or whatever,we need to be able to stand back sometimes andconsider what really does lie beneath the niceness, the wealth, the good looks or the fine work, particular when the facts are pushed in our face. That is not to say those outward effects have no value (of course MLK achievements have wide ranging value), but if we are to set aside core principles when it suits our emotions to do so in one respect, it then becomes difficult to argue those principles in some other respect.

The thing is, my stance on this issue would not change even if MLK's 'crime' was one of the following: dealing in drugs, sexing young boys, sexing young girls, sexing men,sexing animals, physically abusing women...add to thelist at your leasure. My stance wouldn't change, I would still see the outward value of his achievments (they would still be Great) but I would still also question HIS personal greatness.

Now ask yourself, is there anything in that list, or that you can think of which would cause you to change the line you have taken in regard to the particular issue ofhis 'weakness' for white women?

Respect

Kunjufu wrote: i just don't get it...post after post...without knowing fact one for that point, opinion based on hear say just to be hateful or get a rise out of people.....lashing out trying to be slick..then coming back with "oh i am just playin, u need a sense of humor...bull.....

in the "is lenny henry an uncle tom" thread

sir donald kingsley wrote: A sell out is someone who commits a fundamental compromise, within the context of a movement or struggle. For example, Cudjoe was seen as a sell out because of his action of making peace with the British during the period of Maroon Warfare. Other Maroons wanted to continue with the conflict and saw Cudjoe as someone who had compromised the War effort.

In terms of trusting someone with a white partner, I do not organise with or take seriously in terms of my time, and resources, anyone who is not African. Malcolm said there "can be no Black and White unity until there is first some Black unity". This is an organising principle. Therefore, I don't engage in any activity that is geared toward our liberation with non-Africans.

The question of trust never becomes an issue because I view any African who is not working towards that Black unity by implementing it in their own life, as someone I cannot, and will not work with on projects where security is critical



now cudjoe is a great jamaican warrior who epitomized the maroon spirit that fought the british to a standstill after over a century of battle



a national hero



yet he is deemed by many jamaicanto be a sellout



his greatness is still acknowledged but note was made of the decision he made





in the case of mlk sooofresh is quite right to highlight such personal contradictons in an african leader



the man was a minster and husband

and always spoke about his people

so rightfully his personal actions will reflect on his political lifeand integrity



for example political figures often compromise security by involvement in activities that are counter to their political life



by leaving a door open for blackmail and counter propaganda by our enemies



for garveys failings if he had been involved with white women the term sellout would also be fitting for him also

especially as he made it plain



stick to your race

Not really because I guess after I came to really do research on my leaders, I found a lot of them to not be the perfect person that I thought they were.

Take Sun Tzu, a great military tactician who I have admired since I was 16. As well as his thesis on battles hold true even in today's warfare and business, it kinda made me question his morality when he appointed one of a king's concubines as a leader of a mock army of women.

When the woman laughing and all did not follow his orders and execute them doing a simple drill that the other women were to follow, he executed the lead woman and ordered another to do the same thing in her place. Needless to say the second woman did as he commanded. He did this to teach the king a lesson on the effects of leadership at the lower levels. Did I think that his teachings were great? Yes. Did I think he was morally correct for killing that woman only to show an example? No. Still I look at the big picture and on what he achieved.

As far as judging MLK, look back at my argument on white people from what I have written to SoooFresh. MLK was about equality not African pride. You seem to have the two mixed.

I judge MLK, Lumumba, and Shabazz on their deeds that affected us not on their human weaknessess that the racist media sets before me and seemingly ignore in their own.

@ Breadfruit

Thank you bro for resurrecting that excellent post by SDK....I hope that brother returns to the boards soon.

Agree with your comments totally. clp)clp)

Sometimes people cannot appreciate the subtle ways in which the sometimesnot-so-public actions of those who stand as figureheads for our cause, affect us at one level or another.

Respect