I believe that God created men and women to need each other, and the history of different cultural stereotypes is not what defines us. Neither role is more important than the other, it is men who made it that way; not God.

Religious texts have been used as a tool to justify subjecting a woman to a man's will - 'a woman's proper place is in the home' and that is her true purpose and task in life.

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Eph 5:22)

I have watched religion being used as a salve for many unhappy women who are abused by their husbands. Eph 5:25 is a call to husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Men are failing at their role that God gave them and letting down women and children.

According to many views expressed here, men are supposed to be the providers, protectors and the head of the family. Women in the past were warned that this was the order of things: that men are never supposed to be submissive. Men were to be movers and doers - the 'actors' in life. Women were to be passive bystanders, submitting to fate, to duty, to God, and to men. Female submissiveness and passivity were assured throughout history by the clothing and customs women were required to adhere to.

I see your underlying sentiment, when you say women are not supposed to be the main money earners and that men are not supposed to be house-husbands. That is, it is wrong for women to be in combative roles and for men to get in touch with their nurturing side, or for women to have a top level career - that for you, a financially independant woman is putting her career above the needs of her man.

“To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.’” (Gen 3:16)

With Eve's sin in eating the fruit, God placed women to be under the rule of their husbands. This is not to say that women are inferior to men; being under someone’s rule does not imply inequality in God’s sense – one is not worth any more or any less than the other to Him.

Yes I have seen the thinking by some men who see women as weak and timid.

"She needs a protector".

"A woman has a head almost too small for intellect but just big enough for love."

"A really sensible woman feels her dependency. She does what she can but she is conscious of her inferiority and therefore grateful for support."

Throughout history, women have remained in the home, as a kind of 'cultural hostage'. A woman was expected to uphold the values of her man, by making the home and raising children.

In your thinking there is no room for mutually supportive relationships, to submit is to be inferior: to be below the man. I believe men and women are equal in God's sight!!! God made it so men and women look after each other, they don't have to go it alone.

Thank goodness my grandfather taught me, through his love and respect, that to make a commitment to a life partner brings emotional and spiritual care. I know my partner does not see me as a threat, for there is mutual respect, and support... standing by each other, functioning as a single unit.

I understand some black men need to feel that their women respects them as head of the household and trusts in their ability to provide for and protect.

I recall someone saying to me that without self respect there can be no genuine success and that success won at the cost of another's self respect is not success! ...

"For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul."

I accept you see a financially independent black women as having an excessively high opinion of herself.

(Philippians 2:2-4). There is nothing admirable about feeding our own egos. Admiration or devotion to ourselves and our accomplishments is a form of idol worship. An idol is anything placed between you and God (Ephesians 5:5). Even the apostle Paul did not judge his own motives or rely on accolades from others.

Change happens to all of us. We will experience physical and mental growth, personal experiences, and changing social situations that will affect our identity. Identity is a person’s sense of placement in the world. For me my place is by my partner not UNDER him. Sorry but that type of self-esteem is based on self-centeredness. Self respect is frequently based on our feelings of worth, in terms of our skills, achievements, status, financial resources, or physical attributes.

My self worth is based on respecting others. This is impossible until we learn to respect ourselves. That was the gift my grandfather gave me: a sense of one's own proper dignity or value; a sense of self respect.

stymelove - many people do not think conceptually, that requires depth so they see things how it is/was as opposed to how it is supposed to be. If I really wanted to I could have sold my beliefs to my ex wife but I also believe the values I seek can be taught, yes they can be taught in the same way many have been taught to be christian or religious but from a conceptual perspective you have these values or or you don't.

Many women were left abandoned and at the mercy of non principled, disciplined or cultured men...indeed many scapegoated their culture. Now from a womans perspective, (many will look to the experience of their own mother and their own upbringing), why would you want to submit yourself to that when you have your own brain capbale of academic achievement.

The problem is most women forget their fundamentals and relate their domestic enslavement to the duties they had to perform while under it. So cooking and cleaning and even raising children for many is synoymous to being a second class dependent citizen...unless they experienced and witnessed those roles in a loving family unit, they will never appreciate them as priceless contributions to the family - just like marriage, family itself has a totally diferent meaning, some will even see god as part and parcel of that entirely negative life.

You misunderstand the reasons I highlight those examples...... I am not foolish to think that all Africans are the same. I do not judge all men as the same, but I think some who have poster here, allow their personal experiences to cloud the judgment regarding all black women.

Just like white society, there are some black men who think they can dictate how I should conduct myself by using the very tool white oppression used to remove their manhood.


What do you mean identify with Africans?

I see myself firstly as an Caribbean person of African decent, with British citizenship because I was born in England but I went to school in the Caribbean. The Caribbean is described as a melting pot of many different cultures, are you suggesting that my Caribbean heritage is not valid?

The crux of the matter for me is that I have no inclination to gradually slide my Caribbean culture and heritage into a secondary position, to make way for the phasing in of an African ethos. The "African way" may be seen as the original social structure for black people and therefore their ideal for living but I do not believe that there is an African way. Africa is a vast continent, with many different cultures and practises and I feel people take an very unrealistic and Utopian view of Africa.

There is much in my Caribbean culture I can criticise just as there is much for me to celebrate. I find the same with Africa. I cannot sum up 'Africa' with one word i.e. Africa = positive, or Africa = superior, or even Africa = pure.



I do understand why you have this point of view, but what about the positive vision of fatherhood? A father's role as a co-parent, is to fully engage in the emotional and practical day-to-day aspects of raising children. You brought these children into the world. God holds you responsible for raising your children. We should prepare them for life, so they can have a happy marriage and be good citizens and neighbours:

Ephesians 6:4 - Fathers are commanded to bring their children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

You cannot leave this up to others, including your wife (though, of course, she is responsible too). You are responsible. You have no right to shirk this duty or try to shift it to others.

A father's love, or lack of it, is a critical factor in child development. Some even argued that fathers have no biological aptitude for childcare, and women were said to be genetically endowed for it. I think the evidence seems clear that mothers are more effective parents when fathers are both supportive partners and nurturing parents also. The relationship between a mother and father, especially those who are separated and divorced, is also important to the child's success.

When fathers inflict domestic violence or even sexual abuse, it devastates families and creates profound physical and emotional scars in children.

Others abandon their families outright and fail to provide support. The HIV/AIDS crisis demonstrates the critical importance of sexual responsibility for fathers and all men. Men can make a positive impact on the development of their children, but too many fathers have difficulty taking up the responsibility of fatherhood. Why is this?

sugashorti - well I identify myself by race first, nationality second, culture third making me African (diluted/even mixed but not by choice), British Jamaican as for me Caribbean isn't a race neither a land my forefathers asked to be taken so in some ways I reject it as my home as much as I reject the names and religion ingrained into slaves as if that's where their history as a people begun. If Africa is the root, nationality the trunk, culture the twig and personality the leaf then there are certain fundamentals like names and marriage where you have to look to your roots for reference.

I see myself as African of caribbean decent born in England, Africa is the root and I generally work from the root up....which is why my opinion on what marriage is and many other things goes deeper than the here and now.

Now if you said you were British of Carribean-African descent then you might have some consistency but this need to say you are Caribbean first speaks volumes...especially when most Caribbeans would call you english.

Can I ask what race of people you ascribe to or is accepting history started from slavery an admission we are of no race or even unworthy of one.

By identify I mean this with respect to those who chose to disassociate themself from Africa, they look no further to how they are represented than where they were enslaved...why do you think this is, why does the buck stop there, because that's where their parents are from? I had a similar argument with a bod who insisted his son who was born in the UK was Jamiacan yet the boys mum came from Barbados

Africa is indeed diverse which is why I don't understand why people always run away from it citing the bad bits, I say again, why don't people align themselves to the good bits. Believe me I have similar debates with continental Africa and regular tell them they have lots they can learn from others...indeed many African conflicts were based on differences in values.

There are values I wanted to instill into my children but the babymother had her other anti-african ideas and thought she could use my Afican marriage values to raise them in front of my face like grey boys and not expecting to get knocked out.

sugashorti...sorry should say certain things should always reference the root , everything else can be explained away through idle gossip. Calling yourself an African does not invalidate your Caribbean roots, if anything it magnifies it indeed to not recognise yourself as an African first is like you're admitting you wasn't descended from slaves....the ultimate parody if there ever was one.

stymelove - we often forget women were slaves too you really need to appreciate the lack of depth that generally seems to exist, it really is just about looks and outward appearance in general. We are in the west where women skin out their reds in magazines and night clubs to be able to buy shoes but then you could argue it's up to to deny them this market.

Them days are over? yeah it's all about oral sex and dildo's now. still it's like there are too many people who seem to expect things without paying their dues, got too much man who squat in their babymommas kotch and want to go on like they are the dons for the yard for no other reason than being male.

I did not define my race.... because for me this is too much using the white man's ideal of how I should label myself. This concept I disregarded quite early on when I was searching for my ancestors in the plantation livestock books. I know I do not have to explain to you that the white man uses decisive words like 'race' to separate different ethnic groups. Like you, I have rejected the white man's view, we are no longer animals - livestock - these days black woman are seen as sexual beings who have no soul!

I will not allow society to control my mind, I think 'outside the box'. What I mean is that I no longer feel the need to define oneself by the white man's ideals. That's why the way I wear locks or make it my focus to work with nature has nothing to with society's standards, I am no longer a sheep. So what I described was my heritage or connections: I am an Caribbean person of African decent, with British citizenship.

I can see some in the Caribbean feel the same way you do.

Why do you feel there is no consistency? For me, growing up, it was my Caribbean family influences (not British) which instilled in me a lot of my values today. Or do you think being born in an country suddenly makes you adopt that culture? Don't forget my parents were living in times where they faced extreme racism: NO blacks, No Irish, No dogs. Like I said before, I can speak of quite a lot of negative things regarding growing up in the Caribbean. I do have memories of children giving me an hard time because of my English accent but I also found acceptance there, the love of the community. Men and women holding their heads high despite the burden of oppression from an unfair society: the legacy of slavery. Many from the older generation encouraged me to improve through education, as they were denied that opportunity to succeed themselves. I do not believe I am weaker for following their advice, being the first from my village to gain a university degree. The whole community sees these childrens' achievements as theirs, and for me that is how it should be.

My take on slavery is this: I have no idea whether my ancestor was a male or female who arrived from that ship, I cannot image the horrors they faced but often I say a prayer to that person and the rest of my ancestors who I will never know because they had the strength to endure, so that I now have the freedom today to act on my wishes, unlike them. I can spend this freedom hating white people, or invest my energy like the others before me to improve things for the next generation. For me, there is the human race, which consists of many ethnic groups, defined by colour, religion and culture. It was the white man who coined this concept of a 'black race' to justify the selling and abusing of human beings ... they even used religious text to support their oppression.

Because I don't believe in Africa as a Utopia, it does not mean I have disassociated myself, I am of African descent. Perhaps you feel I don't have
a strong affinity to Africa because I do not lay the blame for all black peoples' present problems at the white man's door. What would be the point of that?

Many choose to blame, so they do not actually have to strive for themselves. We have choices to act, to change how things are done. White society says black men are criminals who have loose morals and don't look after their children but our men do not have to behave that way. It is time black people understood they have the power to undermine this negative status quo.



I don't see the purpose of looking towards Africa to find my personal identity. It's untraceable and seems a futile exercise. Different African ethnic groups passed on their history by word of mouth, they had no reason to have an awareness of civilisations that had come and gone on the continent, thousands of miles from them or centuries before. I can draw a parallel between this scenario and of my not knowing my own roots because of slavery.

White society has always been about controlling everything around them, If you to consider the flowers on this earth; there are many varieties, they all have different names, they live in different climates but they are all FLOWERS.

You are asking individuals to be responsible for their own future. It's not easy. It is easier to take the route of least work. I feel that black mens' refusal to recognise their bad treatment of black women, especially our mother's generation, has probably influenced black woman today to strive for themselves. However, it is easier to blame the woman: for being to preoccupied with money, being pigheaded, wanting to control men etc.

I wish I could see more positive images of black men than I do, when I go about my business. This not to suggest that black women do not have their issues as well.

I can only say, it is your duty to teach your values to your children. Despite the behaviour of your ex-wife do everything you can to avoid giving up on your children.

I do not see that I am any less an African when I describe myself as being of African descent.

sugashorti - admirable reply.

Identity based on how far you can trace your family tree? Interesting but some would argue that's more an accurate description of what was behind the thinking of the white man. I do not buy into this philosophy because it falls bang into line of divide and rule and if I'm honest I find not being able to trace ones ancestry all the way back to Africa is more a convenient excuse for too many as opposed to a fundamental defining criteria on identity.

Based on your perspective I could suggest the identity African-Carribbean which neatly defines your descendency without the long winded abstract definition of being an African descendent. But then just like the case of the African-American, if the heart and mind aint 'right' then you would still see yourself as American or in your case Caribbean first African second.

Without going through all the dynamics of how I reached this point (dynamics such as is it right to try and unite based on being oppressed and poverty/class driven unity) I can only re-emphasise by bias towards unity. Identity by race is how unity is achieved, even more so for a people as diverse as Africans i.e. Africa cannot be united based on a tribe, a village or a country much less as a Caribbean so for me African it is, the dynamics of descendancy can be mulled over during idle gossip because the root is firmly defined.

The condition of our relationships, our inconsistent definitions of marrigae and our fragmented families is a direct result of everybody being able to choose what they want to be - you would only want to do that if you are thinking about yourself or at best your tribe or village.....

...and this less African more african thing is also very divisive, if this was a criteria there would be room to argue you are probably more African than many on the continent itself.

One thing I'm not into is blaming white people, it's about looking at self and expanding that to the collective - indeed if anything give the white men (who the cap fit) credit for taking advantage of our tribal mentality that has us drawing 'conveninet' lines of identity which if I never knew any better would say for the most part these are just fashion statements, just like the names so many seem to be giving their children.

I just want to say this is not the case of the female having the last word but your posts raise ideas I have not thought about for a while.

I agree, that's why I see myself as a human being first.

I see your point, however for me one's identity is an ongoing process. What do I mean? Well the world is getting smaller. Unlike my parent's generation, with travel I can enjoy many aspects of African culture. I was reading a book called 'Zenzele' by Nozipo Maraire a few weeks ago, which echoes strongly with me. If the only regret I have, is not having a African language, clearly when my African girlfriends explain things, the essence is loss in translation to English.



I agree with the concept, yet I question the method, if you say one must reject all aspects of Caribbean identity because of the white man's involvement. I see this as rejecting our ancestors' sacrifice. By acknowledging my Caribbean heritage instead of British; the place of my birth, I am taking on board my roots, just like when I graft a young plant to an older tree to prolong the growth of the older tree instead of letting it die. We in this generation, through our contact with, or awareness of Africa, are reconnecting to the older tree.

Do you think you are any less an African than I? When I was traveling in Morocco, I followed the customs, many thought I was a local Moroccan woman because I was covered head to foot, walking 3 steps behind the males in our tour group. Wherever I go, my African ancestory will be recognised.

What worries me is a 'schizophrenia' of some Caribbean people, who reject who they are, in the pursuit of the promised land Africa, or of the white man's idea of success and then they are left feeling unfulfilled.


You may have a point but I think it's more to do with a lack of nourishment, the white man has uprooted us from the tree, transferring us to new soil by imposing on us their ideas of 'black culture'. When I was a child my parents would only allow me an hour of TV and they decided what programmes I could watch. As black parents we allow our children to be brainwashed by the media and we wonder why so many fall through the cracks, even killing each other. It is valid to blame white society, but where are the black men?. If we really want unity, then these black men need to get their act together and stop blaming the black women for failing to raise these kids correctly by themselves.


I agree, my wearing locks was never a fashion statement, and like many I wore bantu knots in the 80's before it become cool or hip. As far as I am concerned, if we want to really unite we need to teach our children the skills they need to survive in this very hostitle environment. I firmly believe it a war of the mind and unfortunately, regarding this generation of blacks whether they are in Africa, the Caribbean, or USA, we are losing badly. If we do not get our act together, we are ensuring the next generations will be slaves of the mind, so tell me will future generations judge us any better for allowing this to happen.