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Villager Senior
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Posts: 4,523
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Location: London, , United Kingdom
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12-01-06, 01:15 PM
Do you know of any stolenAfrican treasures or artefacts which have or have not been recoverd?
Article taken from the BBC website:
The Obelisk was taken away by Italians in 1937
Ethiopia successfully fought for the return of one of its national religious treasure, the Axum Obelisk.
The 1,700-year old stone obelisk looted by Italy nearly 70 years ago arrived in Addis Ababa last month to a rapturous welcome.
Thousands of people lined the streets to see what they consider an important symbol of their identity restored to them.
Two years ago a German museum handed back to Zimbabwe a soapstone carved bird after 100 years.
The Zimbabwe bird is an emblem of the country, appearing on the national flag and currency.
The Ethiopian Obelisk and the Zimbabwe bird are just two of the many traditional and sacred objects that vanished from Africa and ended up in museums, learning institutions or private homes abroad during the colonial era
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Villager Senior
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Posts: 4,157
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Location: , Florida, USA
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15-01-06, 08:54 PM
It seems that most of European and American museums are stolen African artifacts, or from other non-European lands. When will all of this wealth return home?
--Thoth B3
A Luta ContinuaLasima Tushinde Mbilishaka
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Village Veteran
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Posts: 12,230
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Location: London, , United Kingdom
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16-01-06, 12:24 AM
The bird is one of eight. There are 8 official zimbabwe birds representing 8 kings from the great zimbabwe kingdom of the middle ages. When I went to the museum on site only a few were genuine, the others the curator explained to me, where replicas because they were overseas and zimbabwe was still fighting to have them back.
Original drunkmonkey representing
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Villager
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19-01-06, 04:15 AM
Yes, the list is near endless. So much and so many have been taken.
African Bushman Re-Buried at Home, 170 Years Later
October 5, 2000
GABORONE, Botswana (Reuters)-- The embalmed body of a 19th
century bushman returned to African soil on Thursday in an emotional and sometimes bitter ceremony that recalled his degrading display in Europe for nearly two centuries.
More than 1,000 mourners gathered to bury the remains of a man believed to have been dug up by white grave robbers 170 years ago, stuffed with straw and shipped to France as a curiosity.
The body later became the main exhibit in a small museum in Spain where it was known as "El Negro" -- and nearly led to an African boycott of the 1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona.
"The honor we are bestowing on this son of Africa is an indication of our strong determination to close a chapter of the injustices of the past," Botswana's Minister of Foreign Affairs Mompati Merafhe told the gathering
at a civic park in the capital Gaborone.
"We are prepared to forgive, but we cannot forget the crimes of the past, lest they are repeated," he said, standing next to the small coffin draped in the blue, white and black flag of Botswana.
Historians believe the 27 year-old man, who was given a Christian burial with military honors, died of natural causes and was stolen from his grave by two celebrated French taxidermists.
His corpse was exhibited in a Parisian shop for the next 50 years before being sold to a Spanish naturalist, who later bequeathed the remains to a museum in the town of Banyoles, near the city of Barcelona.
Scandal erupted in the 1990s.
A scandal erupted in the early 1990s when a local doctor of Haitian origin objected to the exhibit, on the eve of the Barcelona games.
Alphonse Arcelin, who attended Thursday's funeral, was overcome with emotion as he recalled seeing the body for the first time in 1991.
"I cried and I still cry when I think about it. He was a black man. I felt humiliated, insulted," Arcelin told Reuters.
A large commemorative plaque was erected next to the grave and tells the story of "El Negro's" 170-year journey home.
At least one mourner questioned why he was buried again. "They should put him in a museum to attract tourists. If you bury him then history is gone," Ndu Lekoko told Reuters.
Others have questioned why it took nearly a decade for the body to be returned home after the initial international outrage over the exhibit.
The Banyoles town council initially defended the exhibit, and some townsfolk took to wearing T-shirts bearing the slogan, "Banyoles loves you, El Negro. Don't Go!" Some shopkeepers sold chocolates made
in El Negro's image.
"How should officials of the town of a civilized country defy for so long the principle of respect of a human being," said Daniel Antonio, a senior representative of the Organization of African Unity (OAU). "This act
represented an insult to the dignity of all Africans."
The outrage eventually forced the mayor to remove the body from the exhibition in 1998 and the Spanish government agreed to pay for its repatriation to Botswana.
Spain's ambassador to Botswana, Eduardo Garrigues, said he hoped the return of El Negro would strengthen relations with Africa, but he fell short of giving the apology that some African dignitaries had expected.
Garrigues said the body was not originally taken by Spanish citizens and the delayed return was due to the "complexity of relations" between local and central governments.
"We are not responsible as a government for something that happened in 1830," Garrigues told reporters.
The OAU had asked Botswana, home to around 55,000 San bushmen, to accept the body on behalf of Africa. But some historians say the man may have come from a small village on the Vaal River in what is now South
Africa.
The publicity over El Negro has also focused attention on the plight of bushman in southern Africa, fighting for ancestral desert homelands seized from them centuries ago.
''Saartjie Baartman'' (1789-1815) was the most famous of at least two Khoikhoiwomen who were exhibited as sideshow attractions in 19th centuryEurope under the name Hottentot Venus.
A caricature of Baartman drawn in the early 19th century
Saartjie Baartman was born to a Khoisan family in the vicinity of the Gamtoos River in what is now the Eastern Cape of South Africa This is the Afrikaans form of her name; her original name is unknown. "Saartjie," pronounced Sar-key, translates as "Little Sarah".
Baartman was a servant of Dutch farmers near Cape Town when Hendrick Cezar, the brother of Baartman's employer, suggested that she travel to England for exhibition, promising her that she would become wealthy. Lord Caledon, governor of the Cape, gave permission for the trip, but later regretted it after he gained a complete understanding of its purpose. She left for London in 1810.
She travelled around England showing what Europeans considered her "unusual" bodily features, thought to be typical of Hottentots. She had very large buttocks, steatopygia, which was considered both strange and titillating. Her exhibitors permitted visitors to touch her buttocks for extra payment. In addition, she had a sinus pudoris, otherwise known as the "tablier," "curtain of shame," or apron, a reference to the elongated labia of some Khoisan. To quote Stephen Jay Gould, "The labia minora, or inner lips, of the ordinary female genitalia are greatly enlarged in Khoi-San women, and may hang down three or four inches below the vagina when women stand, thus giving the impression of a separate and enveloping curtain of skin." (Gould, 1985) Saartje never allowed this latter trait to be exhibited while she was alive.
Her exhibition in London created a scandal and a benevolent society called the African Association petitioned for her release. Baartman was questioned in Dutch before a court and stated that she was not under restraint and understood perfectly that she was guaranteed half of the profits. She later traveled to Paris where an animal trainer exhibited her for fifteen months. French anatomist Georges Cuvier and French naturalists visited her and she was the subject of several scientific paintings at the Jardin du Roi.
Baartman died December 29, 1815 of an inflammatory ailment. An autopsy was conducted and the findings published by Henri de Blainville in 1816 and by Cuvier in the Memoires du Museum d'Histoire Naturelle in 1817. Cuvier notes in his monograph that Baartman was an intelligent woman who had an excellent memory and spoke Dutch fluently. Her skeleton, preserved genitals and brain were placed on display in Paris Musee de l'Homme until 1985.
There were sporadic calls for the return of her remains beginning in the1940s but the case became prominent only after US biologist Stephen Jay Gould published an account The Hottentot Venus in the 1980s. When Nelson Mandela became president of South Africa in 1994, he formally requested that France return the remains. After much legal wrangling and debates in the French National Assembly, France acceded to the request on 6 March 2002.
Baartman's remains were returned to her land of birth, the Gamtoos Valley on 3 May 2002.
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Villager Senior
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Posts: 4,523
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Location: London, , United Kingdom
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19-01-06, 04:34 PM
Some random comments surrounding the thieves and our treasures:
With so many survival issues to contend with, Africa really has little time to preserve and maintain her historic treasures. Leaving them where they are ensures a reminder to the West that we are alive and well and have a rich history. How many African budgets can truly be devoted to maintaining such elements of art. Can we really trust our insecure and corrupt governments to provide the necessary protection? Our immediate priority should be fighting poverty. We still lack basic stuff like food, medical facilities, good roads, jobs, good education and security. Museums are fun to visit when all the other elements of a quality life are firmly in place.
Ed Magana, USA
We Africans, especially Ethiopians, must think about the present not our past history. Everybody in the world knows Ethiopians and their famine problem. If Ethiopian government left the Axum obelisk in Rome, the Italians would always remember us and feel ashamed. After all, we beat them. The obelisk should have remained in Italy rather than bringing it here where there is no good care of treasure.
Henok, Ethiopia
Culture, civilisation and history have demographic implications. They set distinct identity and shape culture. An artefact being a derivative of a particular culture, enriches that particular culture. In some cases when the artefact attains a global fame it transcends its regional boundary.
Fantahun A Worku, USA
To see a historical and priceless artifact in a country other than its origin, displayed for view to the people of that country is an implication of an act of plunder or acquisition that occurred in the past and is still acknowledged in the present.
Abdulhussain Haamid, SkellefteƄ, Sweden
I do not understand what the fuss is all about stolen treasures. Why must Africans divert their attention to something less meaningful? We must focus on development and civilisation even if those things were returned and we lack the means to protect or maintain them they will still get lost again may be this time never to be seen again.
King Anderson Emmy Snr.
For me it is very hard to understand why some countries keep these African treasures. Is it to remind themselves that they were dominant or had a hidden intent over future colonisation? Italy gave up the Axum Obelisk not because it liked to do that but the monument had been more of embarrassment over their defeat by the Ethiopians in Adowa. Had the Italians been victorious over Ethiopia in their colonisation attempt, they would have made the obelisk part of the Mussoloni's tomb.
Mesfin, USA
Walking through the Louvre museum in Paris, I was amazed at the beauty of its collection, some of which was brought to France by enterprising individuals such as Napoleon. Do these artifacts now belong to the French government? Have the French succeeded in gaining the permission of modern nations for keeping these artifacts?
Andrea, Canada
Look how Britain is guarding Kohinoor diamond. If it was in India, it would have long gone underground and would be in the possession of a rich and uncaring antiques collector.
Shantanu, India
Two factors need to be articulated in this question: Would the artefacts have survived if not removed from Africa? And with the corruption and poverty, would most of Africa afford to keep delicate items secure? Perhaps the answer is yes, but for now, maybe the world's museums should be "caretakers" for Africa. At least the art works are safe, secure and under significant lock and key.
LB, Australia
Why is the world becoming so politically correct ? Personally I feel that the more developed countries should keep the treasures in trust until African countries can prove they can look after themselves, otherwise they'll be at risk of destruction and everyone in the world would loose out.
Mark Smith, New Zealand
It infuriates me when people take Africans for fools. There is a saying that Africa is the cradle of civilisation, yet we have nothing to show or proof for it. The legacies that our forefathers left us were stolen. We walk around blind because we do not remember where we came from so we have no idea where we are going.
Uti, USA
Perhaps we should give back some of the treasures which were taken. It needs to be done carefully though, for the following reasons: Do you in Africa have modern secure museums to display these artifacts? These things are important cultural objects for all humanity and not just for one culture - one must consider where these objects can be best viewed by the maximum number of people. Aren't you opening a pandora's box here - should the Louvre museum in France give back the Mona Lisa painted by an Italian? By having these objects in other countries it enables them to see and develop an interest in other cultures - which should promote greater understanding in the world.
Dave Jones, UK
Africa is like a continent with no history because a lot has been stolen, we need to give them back. It's difficult to identify all stolen treasures but we can give back through Development Aid. There has been a lot of untold miseries the West have done to Africa e.g. slavery and colonialism.
Kenneth Kachimanga, Denmark
Ibelieve the right thing to do is to return the "stolen" goods. Having said that, I believe that such historical artefacts and heritage must be preserved for subsequent generations to appreciate, so it is incumbent that the rightful owners have a system in place so that the items can be well-cared-for. Just asking for the items back and then "losing" them again would just be unfair.
Salman A, Asian from Africa living in UK
Yes, Africa should get their treasures back but only after most African nations improve their governments and economies. Look what happened after the Iraqi liberation, thousands of priceless antiques were looted or destroyed. So for now I think that these treasures should remain in the care of the West.
Larry, USA
We the people of Africa, of all the things, need our conscience back. Our continent was robbed and raped in broad daylight by the Western imperialists on a massive proportion. They stole away from us not only our treasures but also our very own spirit, our roots and identity as as a people. Our heritage is indispensable, and there is no price tag to assign it. We ask back what is rightfully ours!
Michael Kimpur, Kenyan in USA
We wouldn't have known the value of these things if they weren't taken away. How well are Africans taking care of the ones not stolen from them? Go to historical places and our museums and you will have the answer!
Siegfried Gbadago, Ghana
The current rulers of Africa have proven that they are incapable of even feeding and providing the most basic forms of education for their poor. Why should historical treasures be placed under the responsibility of individuals who have proved time and again how unfit they are to govern?
Neil, UK
We should stop dwelling on the past no matter how treasured it may be, particularly in the current computer age! Today, Africa is engulfed with problems of all kinds and our deepest concern should and must be how best the West can come to the aid of the Africans to fight these problems.
Joe Noutoua Wandah, A Liberian in Ghana
Many African artefacts and treasures are symbols of Africa's rich heritage and traditions and cultures. British and France are the leading looters of many Africa heritage symbols and treasures. African governments should go after their stolen treasures in many European museums and advocate for their return.
Yussuf Dayib Ali, Kenya
Having seen the terrible state of many museums in India, and since we are talking about African States with their problems of instability and corruption, just like India, it's highly debatable whether there would be any benefit of returning these items. There is a chance they would just be stolen, lost or damaged.
Jai Singh, UK
Both physical and mental treasures were stolen from our beautiful continent Africa. However, we should stop dwelling on the past and concentrate on sorting out the problems of the present. Governments should start implementing their developmental talking by using what was left and is available.
Darius Ndyomugyenyi, Uganda
Though I would like to see artifacts return to Africa, I would say there must be re-assurances that they would be properly taken care of. Look at Egypt, its museum is almost falling apart due to lack of funding and refuses the aid of any Western influence.
Alexander Winchester, UK
It is about time that the looters start a move in returning whatever they looted to whom they belong. The cost of returning those treasures should be borne by those who illegally acquired them.
Berhe, UK
On this point I would go further to say that the countries that have stolen these treasures should also be liable to pay damages for the loss of revenue as a result of these items being absent from the countries of origin, and this could go towards ensuring the artefacts are taken good care of.
Nana Kwansah, London, UK
In as much as we need our treasurers for our identity we may as well look at the resources needed to bring these artefacts back home. We may need to use those resources for national development. Africa has a lot of issues that need to be addressed first before we reclaim what is ours. The foreign exchange used to bring the Obelisk to Addis Ababa could have been used to feed many hungry Africans.
Jamaica Tongowona, Zimbabwe
Our artefacts are ourselves and one needs not ask how important they are. Our governments are not to be entrusted with this kind of responsibility. I believe national organisations should be formed to follow up and advocate for the return of Africa's historic treasures both at the local and international levels. We firmly stand on the past in order to see the present and work towards the future.
Admasu Tachble, Ethiopian Canadian
For a continent whose historical heritage has been questioned by some historians as not having a civilisation, these treasures constitute part of its civilisation. They should be returned.
Che Sunday
What makes a nation, apart from the physical boundaries is its distinct culture, past history and the people. Governments should do their best to try and get back those national treasures stolen, pillaged or taken as war booty from their country; side by side to tackling problems at present. I can not tell you how delighted I am to see the Axum obelisk back in my country. I hope the British government will follow suit and return the many artefacts and religious icons which are on display at the British museum and other places such as the Edinburgh University.
Dereje Workie, Glasgow
Do you think the Italians have given the treasurer to the Ethiopians because they wanted to? I strongly believe that they returned the treasure because they do not want to take the blame if the obelisk crumble one day. Because of the environment and other factors, the obelisk becomes softer and easily brittle. For the last decade it was hit by lightening twice. So the only choice the Italians had was to get rid off it.
Kinfegebriel Mengistie, USA
All African treasures should be returned. They are Africans' sense of pride and future tourists attraction for Africa. Ethiopian Government needs a vigorous diplomatic effort to reclaim all artefacts and manuscripts. It is right and an honour for the European countries to return the treasures to the owners.
Abate Tegegne, UK
Historical treasures such as the obelisk are historical reference points of my country. If I can't identify myself with my country, then who am I? Imagine how you feel when you find out that someone has stolen your identity and has destroyed your credit.
TY, USA
The restitution must continue by all means. This is the beginning, the British Government has a moral and historical obligation to return all Ethiopia's heritages including the body of Prince Alemayehu Theodros that were looted by its predecessors.
Theodros Arega, Sweden
How would it feel if Eiffel Tower were stolen from Paris and erected somewhere on a South Pacific island? The Axum obelisk, which was standing in the heart of Rome after it was stolen from Ethiopia about 70 years ago, represented a gross cultural displacement. Handing over the towering cultural icon to Ethiopia symbolises the emergence of an Italian generation which can no longer take pride in looted treasures. Likewise, sending back all treasures to their rightful owners makes the world a better home. Later on, we can talk about cultural exchanges, like when the French gave the Americans a much-valued gift: the Statue of Liberty.
Zegashaw, USA
Why is it that most Europeans and American Art have to be protected? Even when they are stolen, you cannot find them in the market. But, our African arts are easily found in museums around the world, and nobody ever asks why and how they found their way abroad.
Mudila M. USA
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Villager Senior
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19-01-06, 06:26 PM
Well given that Africa is dominated by foreign religions I wouldmake the bold statementthat many Africans from the continent are ambivalent towards their history and culture. After all many Africans believe that the ways of their ancestors were primitive and hold the Juedeo Christian/Islamic belief that the previous ways of social organsisation and spirituality were wrong and heathen.
So it seems a bit hypocritical to hear all these noises about theft of artifacts etc. whenmost Chritians and muslimsdont even value the history of their forefathers and hold erroneous views about their own history curtesy of their religious beliefs.
This is a barrier to Africans celebrating their heritage in full. And partly why it is so easy for others to plunder. Look at the Aswan dam which has buried millenia of Nubian history.
I do not understand what the fuss is all about stolen treasures. Why must Africans divert their attention to something less meaningful? We must focus on development and civilisation even if those things were returned and we lack the means to protect or maintain them they will still get lost again may be this time never to be seen again.
King Anderson Emmy Snr.
This is colonial mentality at its worst.
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Villager Senior
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Posts: 1,757
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In the heart of Africa
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21-01-06, 02:32 AM
mansamusa wrote:
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Well given that Africa is dominated by foreign religions I wouldmake the bold statementthat many Africans from the continent are ambivalent towards their history and culture. After all many Africans believe that the ways of their ancestors were primitive and hold the Juedeo Christian/Islamic belief that the previous ways of social organsisation and spirituality were wrong and heathen.
So it seems a bit hypocritical to hear all these noises about theft of artifacts etc. whenmost Chritians and muslimsdont even value the history of their forefathers and hold erroneous views about their own history curtesy of their religious beliefs.
This is a barrier to Africans celebrating their heritage in full. And partly why it is so easy for others to plunder. Look at the Aswan dam which has buried millenia of Nubian history.
I do not understand what the fuss is all about stolen treasures. Why must Africans divert their attention to something less meaningful? We must focus on development and civilisation even if those things were returned and we lack the means to protect or maintain them they will still get lost again may be this time never to be seen again.
King Anderson Emmy Snr.
This is colonial mentality at its worst.
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Is this something you know for sure or have you "read" it on the internet/somewhere ?
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Some artifacts were alsocreated by Juedeo Christian/Islamic believers...
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Christianity is also a foreign religion in Europe, are the europeans ambivalent to their culture and heritage ? confused3The europeans evem acknowledge their barbarian heritage (not including Greeks).
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It isan unfortunate truth however that afruica at the moment probablt cannot keep these things safe. ME thinks this should be a slow process. Things should be given back slowly. The best at the momentwould be to locate all of them, event those that private owners have aquired
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If beastiality is allowed on the BNV then why cant I post booty?-Black Power
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Villager Senior
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21-01-06, 03:35 AM
Dark Prince wrote:
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mansamusa wrote:
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Well given that Africa is dominated by foreign religions I wouldmake the bold statementthat many Africans from the continent are ambivalent towards their history and culture. After all many Africans believe that the ways of their ancestors were primitive and hold the Juedeo Christian/Islamic belief that the previous ways of social organsisation and spirituality were wrong and heathen.
So it seems a bit hypocritical to hear all these noises about theft of artifacts etc. whenmost Chritians and muslimsdont even value the history of their forefathers and hold erroneous views about their own history curtesy of their religious beliefs.
This is a barrier to Africans celebrating their heritage in full. And partly why it is so easy for others to plunder. Look at the Aswan dam which has buried millenia of Nubian history.
I do not understand what the fuss is all about stolen treasures. Why must Africans divert their attention to something less meaningful? We must focus on development and civilisation even if those things were returned and we lack the means to protect or maintain them they will still get lost again may be this time never to be seen again.
King Anderson Emmy Snr.
This is colonial mentality at its worst.
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Is this something you know for sure or have you "read" it on the internet/somewhere ?
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No I read it in the Bible.
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Some artifacts were alsocreated by Juedeo Christian/Islamic believers...
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Like what// Islam virtually forbids traditional and contemporary African art and art forms...even the sciencesand philiosophy in Timbuctu were seen through an omnipresent Arabic eye.What did African Christians leave as a legacy apart from a few rock hewn churches. It even led Africans withinto smash up their old relics to build for the new religion.
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Christianity is also a foreign religion in Europe, are the europeans ambivalent to their culture and heritage ? confused3The europeans evem acknowledge their barbarian heritage (not including Greeks).
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And how many of them are Christians now. Christianity is dead within Europe. But look/ you /if you are African have fallen into the same trap. Why did you equate Africans basking in their history with barbarian heritage.To me that sounds like you are saying that people within Africa pre Christianity and Islam were barbarians. Tell me it aint true.
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It isan unfortunate truth however that afruica at the moment probablt cannot keep these things safe. ME thinks this should be a slow process. Things should be given back slowly. The best at the momentwould be to locate all of them, event those that private owners have aquired
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Youre right. Ghana cant keep things safe. Neither could Kenya. Botswana havent a hope in hell.We all know how forgetful those Ethiopians are / after all some crazy Islamist may smash it up the obelikfor the barbaric phallic symbol it is..
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Yes the white man is much more fully equipped and intelligent to hold the black mansheritage. How can you expect a bunch of incompetents to hold the very things their ancestors produced.Extending your line of thought European multinationals should pull slowly out of Africa. Theblacks in South Africa should be patient in their demand forprosperity in their own country. Give back our mineral deposits slowly..Let the white man relinquish control slowly eh.... it will be safer.
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