In all like I said I appreciate hearing from a mans view. We actually have a lot more in common than is portrayed, and sometimes it can be tough here when we want to hear what you have to say but you go quiet. I miss it when you do talk about these things openly from time to time so I'm even more pleased that those of you who have posted did so. Thank you.[/size][/quote]

No problem, sis, I'm glad you at least saw it for what it was. How others can conclude it's "trying to hold women back" is anyone's guess....



LOL that's just the way you have to look at it bro.

Thank you nsogbu1562 for your input. Being complacent by allowing the media to define us using stereotypes, is the sure road to losing our dignity, self-respect and self-worth. I feel that both black men and women need to be more conscious of the media’s divisive methods which try to impose on us what it means to be black and how we should treat each other. If a writer is black it does not automatically follow that their work will be uplifting or conceived with our best interests in mind.
.

The games... sometimes its fun but other times its just annoying, talking about the whole, ''chase me'' bit flittering off between guys on a like me like me not basis using sex as some kind of bargining chip then calling us men dogs. Brothers thinking women aint playas.

Gotta watch for the affront on your manhood bit in an argument as well, they'll throw it in and you'll get pissed without knowing why... they go for the balls, like, ''is it too heavy for you?'' - ''what, you can't do it/afford it?'' and so on but in more sly ways, trust, they kick it psycological but you're so pissed you don't notice.

Just got back from a trip with a friend, spent the time having her bounce around on half of Africa flitting off between guys playing them off one another, ''oh he's go great, don't you think?'' flirt flirt chase me chase me... worse thing was talking to some next dibby woman about relationships and love and she, out of spite, went told her I liked her and was jealous of her and her boyfriend... totally took our conversation, which was quite deep, waaaaaaaaay out of context, flipped the script so bad when it hit the fan I was lost for words, too much to catch up with by the time she'd finished... so now this woman is all up in my room in the mornings waking me up looking damn fine throwing it around dreads and everything knowing me well enough to talk just like the kind of woman I like then flipping it and chatting about her boyfriend reminding me that shes nearly twice my age and out of reach.

Not going all Incognito on the situation but I'm a man not some dog, aint chasing no cooch around the yard like those other brothers.

KMT

Quote: "This is exactly what I was talking. Why can't we focus on women's faults/issues for once. Whenever we do that many woman come in with "what about the men" "men make us like that" etc etc. That is the history of this forum and in the general world. We talk about men's faults all the time. I can criticise men with the best of them but thats because the majority men can take criticism that is constructive (imo). Of course its bias, its written from a male perspective. I don't agree with the whole article but I can see the truth in alot of it".

Man how many time had I read a post and then post a reply without reading the whole thread only to come back later to realise that actually someone had said exactly what I had said, only earlier on in the thread or post. I just hate when that happens!
I was gearing up to say just that, the above qoutes! I doubt that anyone can easily find a post on these forums where a female is being critical of any female traits. Anytime we level a critism at women it's always a "its mens fault". Almost asthough ie we blame men for everything then the spotlight will always fall on them and we are never looked at!
No doubt one will write to the mods complaining that this is bullying and he should remove it!

6. Constantly Talking About Other Men

"She's always talking about this guy at her job and it really pisses me off."

—Shawn, corporate executive


>>>>>>>
I agree with this one

Yeah I need to stop doing that. I always wanted to talk about other men to test the limits but that needs to stop.

"I can't stand it when a woman always wants to prove to me that she's smart, tough, and independent." — Lawrence, attorney. It really irritates men when women they're involved with are constantly trying to upstage them."

Ah the words of a weak little boy. It's amazing how people's minds can be so different. For me if someone is doing better than I am my instant reaction is to praise them then ask them questions about what they're doing right. Then I try to apply the information to my own life to better myself as a person. It has nothing to do with "upstaging" anyone.

In college the majority of the people on my course are male. We have a small minority of boys who cannot bare it when a woman comes out on top and even the more secure guys have noticed it. I get great grades but that's because I'm harding working and ambitious not because I'm in competition with anyone. If men like "Lawrence" feel intimidated by that they need to work harder rather than sitting around whinging and blaming women for their shortcomings.

I'm single but boys get irritated over my Zac Efron obsession. "Who ****ing cares about Zac Efron, he's swag!" one guy shouted at me. He simply couldn't take the endless fangirl talk anymore. I've since managed to resist the urge to mention him again. It's been a whole two days and I'm doing well lol

I think it's a jealousy thing that works both ways. Women don't like to hear men constantly harping on about Jessica Alba either.

Lets face it. Women only want man for convenience. Can't change the light bulb, don't know where the Stopcock is located, what if the the electrics keep tripping?
What if the toilet wont flush?
Dont wanna be living a single life and having to sort these probs out myself!
I know! I will get a man!

11.
having too much of a past no man wants a woman that is a hoe

yeah i said it

Eh. We all suck. Boys and girls, go to your respective corners; let's stay away from each other. Works for me. ;-)

lol at suggesting men dont lift women up there are lots of savahoes around town lol

but on a real a lot of men do im one of em i rate my sister highly and my woman also and i pretty much use them in reference as a template to what a good woman is. lol no doubt someone will try and discredit this notion by saying they could be hoes behind close doors and other red herring comments that would come from some bitter people.

as for admitting own faults thats also something i do so much so i feel EXTREMELY lucky that i have got a woman with the attitude i have not that its wrong but most women dont agree with me but i got on my theory as to why.

in short not all men are scared to admit their faults and big up women but the sad truth is today i believe MOST of the average woman dont deserve biggin up and you dont need me to tell you that cos it shows in how many men dont wanna commit no more cos the truth is so many women are NOT worth it.

Bump.........

1. once i hear a woman call herself independent i loose all respect for her and loose interest because for the most part she is exaggerating and making herself seem like some form of high flyer

for example she will tell us she is a medical coordinator which really means she is just a receptionist in a hospital

complete looser who i have no use for.


2. the other is women who debate their sexual conduct against the acts of men because this tells me she is a loose skank that has shagged so many men that she can no longer compete with LADIES and lady like behaviour so she has to compete with men as men are the only beings she can compete with realistically.
*HOCK AND SPIT*

3. women that whine they cant find a man (words cant explain how much i dont care you self entitled love beggar)

thats all i can think of at present

I don't know men like that but what have been told that the greatest weapon is the use of one's mouth that could endanger any relationship. During the course of my marriage, I took advice from my husband for guidance in the area personalised treatment: by writing about others handle black women trying to qualify in a counselling program to how a tutor attempted to befriend certain students opposed to just doing her job and the path of universities real mission of instititions students of varied creed. His advice at that time gave me a voice to vent out the hurt feelings but it was not the best measure when the rule of violation is played by forces that maintain such stakes of certain women being treated as such for whatever reason. Not to mention that a highlight of dishonor which didn't humilate me when I did return to England with my daughter whom at the time was five months old before returning to the states for good. The real violation of trauma became damage by touch of the womb committed by that dark cat with the coat and boots looking at medical files and his women called his gorgeous yet ignore that light glow in his eyes as darkness encircled all around him. Some things are about maintaining one's home regardless of the effect experience of harming someone's daughter.

Then lying pretending that a sister could bring forth hell on white women 'sweet dream made like these' lie.

When trying to maintain marital bliss, i realised that i didn't know the essence of what makes a relationship maintained and doing it all wasn't the source of togetherness rather a burden of distastefulness. So, in the future, any attempt of any new relationships I would hope that guidance through experience of knowing one's expectations and 'buttons' should determines the course of keeping one's man truly at peace with his selection of me.

i've always wondered what women mean by being independent ( at least some of them). independent from what or who???? what where they before.....

somehow i always found that to be a big turnoff

my high school crush always brags about how independent she is. i look at her and stay quiet. she thinks highly of herself. looks down on me. im like, woman you and i both the same. we each have high school degrees live on student loans and from our parents earning, trying to make it. but she somehow she thinks otherwise.

so will older women tell enlighten me

1. Independent Woman (who always state it) - that tells me you only think about yourself

2. Frequent Mood Swings (day to day) - it could irritate too much one day and is normally a deeper issue with the woman concerned

3. Bad Mothers - if you can't treat your kid right you won't treat your man right.

Thats a few?

Gamu: I don't consider myself an 'older' woman just yet but I will try to help you out here...

Okay... bear with me now

Back in the olden days when marriage was more popular the majority of women would be walked down the aisle and 'given away' by their fathers to their new husbands. The new husband was basically expected to take over the role of the father/caretaker and take on responsibility for catering to the wife's needs.

Traditionally (at least in some societies, and with some people anyway) the man would be the main breadwinner and the woman's role predominantly was to look after the home and the children. 'Proper' men would give their wives what she needed to take care of the household, herself and the children. That means, if a woman wanted something it would be down to the husband to provide this for her, it was not expected that she would have to go out and get things for herself.

People of a certain generation will be familiar with the idea of women receiving 'housekeeping' money from their man. This would be spent on bills, food etc. If a man was an indequate provider he would either not make enough money to cover the essentials, or he would spend the money he did make on drink, gambling, other women etc – and the family would suffer for it.

In this kind of arrangement if a woman needed a new church hat or a new slip (old-fashioned under garment not really worn by many women nowadays) she would maybe have to ask for extra money from the breadwinner to be able to get this without having to dip into the housekeeping.

'Traditionally' the woman's position was mainly one of dependency in material/financial terms at least. The man knew that his woman depended on him to bring home the bacon and it wasn't an issue. The role that the 'traditional' woman played was not one I would ever diminish, it was a very valuable role.

Even though this is how things supposedly were 'traditionally' - the reality for a lot of women (especially blk women) was that they would do the 'traditional' stuff (keep house, rear children) and also help earn money for the household - even though with the man being head of the household I guess he would still control the finances to a degree, although again – that will have differed from family to family as some men would definitely hand over everything to the woman and let her control it and give him an allowance out of it. Nothing wrong with that either.

Now, just because a woman's main job (and rightful place some would say) is to look after home and children and not necessarily to go out into the workplace - does not mean she is not pulling her weight by the fact she is not earning. Some men nowadays wouldn't have that, they would resent her for staying home while he went out to work - but that's beside the point. Some men happily do the house husband thing and collect housekeeping from their missus. To my mind, a marriage is a partnership and each partner can and often does contribute in different ways to the smooth running of the operation, and sensible couples will play to their strengths.

However, things changed somewhat at some point in history (maybe when the Pill came out and gave women more choice and control regarding child-bearing) and more and more women began to be employed in a full time capacity outside the home.

These days more and more women work full time - and in many cases earn more than their husbands. Many women work part time as well as look after home and children. These days it is rare to find a woman who does not have to earn at least some of the family income - and it's also rare to find a man willing to take on the sole responsibility for earning money, even when there are children in the family that need looking after.

Some women (with and without children) these days who are not married or in a partnership don't earn their own bread, instead they depend on the State to provide for them; to pay their rent and give them money for bills and food.

Some of those women who cover all their material needs themselves refer to themselves as Independent Women to highlight the fact that no one else (the State or a partner) gives them money to pay for their needs and wants. If one of these women want a pair of Louboutins (designer shoes) - depending on her income she may well be able to get them without asking somebody else for the money to buy them. Most working women nowadays can afford to cover their material needs and have something extra for the non-essentials that most women do like to have - like a holiday or a pedicure or a new handbag or whatever.

If someone is living off their parents, the State or a man or a friend or whoever – that person cannot really describe themselves as being independent in my view.

There's also another kind of independence which involves being able to take care of other practicalities; for example – drive a removal van, operate a washing machine, being able to assemble flat pack furniture, follow the instructions to install/set up appliances and gadgets, iron a shirt properly, lay flooring, tile a bathroom/kitchen, wash white clothes - and maintain the whiteness, handwash clothes should the washing machine break down, use needle and thread to fix a hem that has fallen down, fix a computer, prepare a nutritious meal from scratch, change a tyre/fix a car, style or cut hair, do your own business accounts, service/fix a boiler etc etc etc.

These are all the type of things which if you can do yourself you do not need to DEPEND on (or pay) someone else to do for you. Some men will find some of these abilities/skills in a woman refreshing and worthy of admiration, other men will find it threatening or irritating or intimidating or emasculating, or unfeminine - or just a general turn-off.

Some people are very boastful about their skills and talents and achievements and accomplishments, but lots of people aren't - so they don't feel a need to brag about how they fixed their own car, or put their own wood flooring down or did their own hair cut, cut their own beard or whatever. For example, I can do many things for myself (I'm an adult so I should be able to!) but wouldn't really go around bragging about being 'independent'. If someone asked if I can do something, or implied that I couldn't - then I might say what I can do, and if someone asked me if I was dependent or independent - then I would say I am more independent than I am dependent, because the truth is I do a lot of stuff for myself and there is very little I actually rely on other people to do for me, and the older I get is the more I learn to do.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to delegate more, and have others do the stuff I find difficult or tedious, but often you find that have to depend on yourself simply because others prove unreliable or unwilling or incompetent. That is, you often learn how to do something yourself when you have become unsatisfied with the service from others or you've been let down too many times, or because you can't get someone to do it for you the way you want it done. I'm sure that's true for a lot of people, both male and female.

part 2

Someone once said: Life imitates art far more than art imitates life. I don't know if this is 100% true, but there is truth in it. And here's my theory...

Back in the day Gwen Guthrie brought out a song, you might know it – it was a smash hit. It became an anthem and it went a little something like this:

~

Boy, nothin' in life is free-ee
That's why I'm asking you, what can you do for me?
I've go-ot responsibilitie-ies
So I'm lookin' for a man who's got some money in his hand

'Cause nothin' from nothin', lea-eaves a nothin'
You got to have somethin' if you want to be with me
Oh-oh, life is just serious, lo-ove's too mysterious
A fly girl like me needs security
'Cause ain't nothin' goin' on but the rent
You got to have a J.O.B. if you want to be with me
Ain't nothin' goin' on but the rent
You got to have a J.O.B. if you want to be with me
No romance without finance, I said no romance without finance

Boy, your silky words are swee-eet
But we're only wastin' time if your pockets are empty
I-I got lots of love to gi-ive
But I will have to avoid you if you're unemployed

~

This gave a lot of women the idea that they were 'fly girls' and needed financial security - from a man. This song firmly implanted the idea in their heads that they needed a man who had some money in his hand.

It must have been hard for men who had no J.O.B. because few 'fly girls' were going to want to get involved with them during this era. LOL

Then after that... out came TLC with 'No Scrubs'. This was another massive hit. Those girls said:

~

I don't want no scrub a scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me, hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride trying to holler at me.

You don't have a car and you're walking oh yes son I'm talking to you

You live at home with your momma oh yes son I'm talking to you

Wanna get with me with no money – oh no I don't want no scrub

~

This just cemented in a lot of young women's heads (and for those that missed Gwen Guthrie's message) that they should expect a man to have money - and to be able to use it to make them happy too I guess.

Later on I'm gonna bring this up to the present day, so at the moment my theory might not make sense - but it will when I'm done.

tbc

comfort and joy the experiences you provided makes clear sense. Marriage is not easy and not all that hard either. When I married at 24 and half, I enjoyed myself for the most part learning how to be with my first husband without understanding the nature of how to truly be a wife or life partner as a grew into my early 30's (six years) on... I realised that I have developed a more realistic mind as to what to anticipate but still lack the true essence of how to formulate myself as a developed wife where happiness and meaningful love presented.

Now that I am a new mother its all about my daughter and the upcoming of a need baby, so I hope that the life lessons that I experienced in the first marriage and with one man has taught me some things to not repeat in future relationships. [i] want to be a goood mother, a healthy one for my babies and let the man guide me with his desires of expectations in an appropriate manner without I being seem as the cause of contempt when the reality that all direction came from the word of my partner and not my me. Sometimes, marrying older men doesn't provide helpfulness but could really create tension and ill when advice is not handle by direction of reaffirmating any uncomfortable issue.

Good advice.....nice read

part 3.

I'm not even gonna go into the countless dancehall (or bashment as it's now known) tunes there were in the 80s and 90s that urged women to only deal with men who could offer financial support. We'd be here all night if I was going to name them all, but just wanna refer to one in particular which was by Shabba Ranks, that was called: If A Man Want It Mek Him Pay Down Pon It. I'm sure you get the gist of what that was all about without any further detail.


Then Destiny's Child said:

~

Question: Tell me what you think about me
I buy my own diamonds and I buy my own rings

(blah blah blah)

I pay my own bills
Always 50/50 in relationships

The shoes on my feet
I've bought it
The clothes I'm wearing
I've bought it
The rock I'm rockin'
I've bought it
'Cause I depend on me
If I wanted the watch you're wearin'
I'll buy it
The house I live in
I've bought it
The car I'm driving
I've bought it
I depend on me
(I depend on me)

All the women who are independent
Throw your hands up at me
All the honeys who makin' money
Throw your hands up at me
All the mommas proper dollars
Throw your hands up at me
All the ladies who truly feel me
Throw your hands up at me


I worked hard and sacrificed to get what I get
Ladies, it ain't easy bein' independent
Question: How'd you like this knowledge that I brought
Braggin' on that cash that he gave you is to front
If you're gonna brag make sure it's your money you flaunt
Depend on no one else to give you what you want

~

etc etc etc

Then Ne-Yo came out with Miss Independent – another big tune. Much loved by many. Til even Movado (or Vybz Kartel or one of them) managed to get a hit just by doing a song ('Ramping Shop' I believe) on the same rhythm. Wicked tune still! And I'm not even a big fan of that kind of music these days really. 'Virginity' is a nother wicked tune that I probably shouldn't like but do - a lot! "me have white liver cause me a Indian" ;-)



Anyway.... back to Ne Yo, he said:

~

she work like a boss, play like a boss – car and crib she bout to pay them both off, and her bills are paid on time. That's the girl that's on my mind.

She got her own thing, that's why I love her. Miss Independent won't you come and spend a little time.

Her favourite thing to say: don't worry I got it. And everything she got, best believe she bought it.

Something kinda sexy about a woman who don't even need my help. Something about the kinda woman that can do for herself.

etc etc.

~

That wasn't enough for NeYo – he come back with the remix ft Jamie Foxx and Fabolous!

And they said:

~

there ain't nothing in this world more sexy than a girl that want but don't need me. Knowing she can do for herself makes me wanna give her my wealth.

Lovely face, nice thick thighs. Plus she got drive that matches my drive. Sexy thang, she's McFly, all the while paying the bills on time.

She don't look at me like Captain Save Em, gold digging no she don't do that. I love it when she say, it's cool I got it, I got it, I got it.

Everything she got she work for it, good life made for it, she take pride in saying that she paid for it, only kind of girl I want

etc etc etc

~

part 4.

sooo....

The trends are set from the songs and a lot of women take their cues from those. Girls who have to take care of themselves (cos no one else is gonna do it for em) can finally stop feeling like mugs and feel proud that they can actually do for themselves. I've noticed that a lot of men seem to bristle at the term 'independent woman' and I don't really get it, but I hope my theory goes some way to explaining where it comes from and why it really ain't so bad when you think about it. Well... Ne-You doesn't think it is anyway.

After Gwen and those girls from TLC done made girls who had to get their own or who were minding (financially supporting) men feel bad about it, out comes Ne-Yo to restore their pride! Cheers Ne-Yo!

Maybe T-Boz and them got it wrong? [thought some girls] Maybe it doesn't really matter if he's a scrub. If I've got a car he can hang out the passenger side of my car, so he don't need to be in his friend's car, and he don't need his own car cos I don't mind ferrying him about like a taxi driver - because I love him and at least that way I know where he's going! Why should it matter what a man does or doesn't have when you work and got your own? Now you can be an Independent Woman like Beyonce says and buy your own shit, and be proud to! Thank you Bey! [those girls thought]

I mean, you had Whitney Houston back in the day singing 'Saving All My Love for You' which pretty much encouraged women to accept side piece status and feel like it was some kinda cool romantic situation to be in. Check the lyrics yourself. It was another massive sing-a-long hit.

I reckon a lot of women bought into it and got into messed up, degrading 'relationships' ... and stayed in them cos of Whitney's words.

~

My friends try to tell me find a man of my own, but each time I try I just break down and cry and I'd rather be home feeling blue????

~

WTF?? No really, come on - what was she on?? [crack??]

So last year Beyonce flipped the script and told 'em:

~

if you liked it then you should have put a ring on it

~

- so girls can now aspire to marriage and being Number One instead of thinking there's anything attractive about being last on the list/the jump off. Hallelujah to that I say! Beyonce has her faults (don't we all?) and I'll be the first to admit that I don't like most of her songs since DC disbanded - and I'm not a fan of Single Ladies (Put A Ring On It) - find it quite annoying actually, it hurts my ears - but you've got to give it to the girl, some of her songs are empowering and can give help some women start to think about developing some self-worth and respect for themselves. Remember Survivor? Now that was a choooon! :

~

now that you're outta my life I'm so much better, thought that I'd be weak without you but I'm stronger.

I'm a survivor! I'm not gon give up


etc etc etc

~

So finally... ( I did say you'd have to bear with me!)

my point Gamu is - don't blame women, blame these songwriters!

and just out of interest if given the choice out of a woman that insists you must have money and must spend it on her before you could be considered worthy of dealing with... and a woman who describes herself as an independent woman who's got her own and can do for herself - which one would you prefer? Don't front Gamu.

Don't mind me, I'm just having fun with y'all...

p.s. I really like if not love most of the songs featured here. If you don't know them or haven't heard them - YouTube is your friend. But most of them were such massive hits when they came out that you have to be from another planet or very very young if you don't know the chorus (at least) of most of them.

Thank you and good night.

there is no such thing is independent in this world

even men are not independent we are all interwoven into a structure that makes us dependent on SOMETHING OR SOMEONE(S)

women who call themselves independent due to their job are only independent in their own deluded mind at the expense of them being allowed to think that working and spending all their money on fancy shit like cars is a good thing rather than EMPOWERING the people they can help ie the men proximate to her that may not earn as much money.

too many women let a social element (which can change for any number of reasons) fool themselves into thinking independence is a good think they are FREE to live life and live like the girls in sex in the city but that takes its toll and when it does they are NOT desirable.

got more respect for a woman being part of an alliance ie a family

sod strong independent black women


STRONG UNITED BLACK FAMILY IS WEH MI DEH PON

..A quote from a Article on this same issue...in a roundabout sort of way

It saddens me to see how much of a almost "****ographic" society we live in. Women are socially conditioned from birth to think of being nothing more then objects and they're sold this through the mask of "empowerment" "You're strong and powerful, wear skimpy clothes, get body augmentations, go from man to man!" Sounds like some mens dream come true doesn't? What better way to get women to pander to these dreams by selling the idea to women that acting like that makes them "strong" I HOPE we can get some morals back into society but I honestly think this sexualisation creates far too much revenue for the patriarchy and such for it to be stopped. Boys could stand to be taught to respect women too, parents, the government and the media could put a stop to this. It they will remains to be see

there are aspects where women hold more power than men. the thing you speak of will continue if women let them happen. think about it if women raised their standards, and stopped fooling around dont you think men would be forced to raise their standards to meet up to that of their desirable women. as far relationship goes women have the final say in what happens

im not trying to start blame game but some things are not always because man's fault