(Rueters& African new sources)

Harare: Zimbabwae

GOVERNMENT yesterday revealed the nationalities of the 64 suspected mercenaries who were detained at the Harare International Airport on Sunday night after the owners of their plane had made false declaration of the cargo and crew.

They are 20 South Africans, 18 Namibians, 23 Angolans, two Congolese (DRC) and one Zimbabwean with a South African passport.

The Minister of Home Affairs Cde Kembo Mohadi said Zimbabwean security authorities became suspicious after the pilot had only kept the cockpit lights on with the rest of the plane in darkness.

"This was deliberate and it was clearly intended to hide the presence of the additional 64 passengers. On the discovery of the undeclared passengers, the plane was immediately grounded and the crew and passengers arrested," he said.

Cde Mohadi said the captain of the plane had advised the Harare tower that the plane was empty except for the crew of three and four loaders.

The minister said initial investigations revealed that the plane was a former US Airforce aircraft which was sold to Dodson Aviation of the United States, a company he said had links to the US government.

"The plane recently flew to South Africa with an American crew which then swapped with a South African crew in Pretoria. It was at Wonderboom Airport that the mercenaries embarked and loaded their cargo," he said.

The plane is believed to have stopped at Petersburg airport before proceeding to Harare.

Home Affairs (Interior) Minister Kembo Mohadi said authorities had also arrested a man identified as Simon Mann, a former member of the British Special Air Service who was at the airport to meet the plane when it landed in Harare on Sunday.

Cde Mohadi said Mann had initially visited the country in February this year together with one Nicholas du Toit.

An advance team met the plane at the Harare International Airport and it consisted ofSimon Mann and two other men who had entered the country on March 5 this year.

The two referred to themselves as international technical consultants based in the British Virgin Islands.

"Simon Mann claimed to run a company called Logo Logistics while du Toit ran a company called Military Technical Services Incorporated. Both operated from the same address," he said.

The two made inquiries about the purchase of arms and ammunition and indicated they worked with a country in the Great Lakes to train Katangese rebels.

They later changed their story and claimed that they wanted weapons to protect a mining property in the DRC.

"Questions were raised as to why the two South Africans would want to buy weapons from Zimbabwe if the end use was legal. South Africa is a much bigger arms manufacturer," he said.

Cde Mohadi said a sinister motive was suspected and measures to monitor their plans until the arrest were instituted.

He said only the white component of the group seemed knowledgeable of the final destination and the purpose of the expedition.

It is believed a briefing on the mission was to be given to the rest of the members once the plane was airborne.

Cde Mohadi said investigations had also revealed that Mann was a former member of the British Special Airforce Service (SAS).

He said when the other members were arrested, du Toit was not there and had started arranging for the legal representation of the accused.

He said a Simon Witherspoon, a known South African mercenary who has operated in various countries in Africa, including Cote d*Ivoire, appeared to be the spokesman of the group.

He left the South African Defence Forces in 1989 to join the mercenary company, Executive Outcomes.

The minister said preliminary investigations indicated that Harare was not the final destination of the group as Bujumbura in Burundi and Mbuji Mayi in the DRC had been mentioned as the other destinations.

Meanwhile on the west coast of Africa, tiny, oil-rich Equatorial Guinea said on Tuesday it had arrested 15 suspected foreign mercenaries it described as an advance party connected with the group detained in Harare.

"A sinister motive was therefore suspected," Mohadi added. "The modus operandi of the group... indicates that the group was on a military mission on the African continent."

"Further investigations are underway and more information will be released to the public as it becomes available," Cde Mohadi said.

Government was working closely with otherSADC members on the issue.

Civil Aviation Authority of Zimbabwe chief executive officer Mr Karikoga Kaseke said the flight plan of the impounded plane had a lot of inconsistencies and was very misleading and at times conflicting.

He said the owners of the plane said the plane had only three crew members and four loaders and carried cargo.

"This is the reason why we parked it in the cargo section. They did not tell us they had people inside," he said.

Mr Kaseke said the crew asked for a technical stopover for refuelling but it later emerged they had other plans.

He said the crew indicated they were flying to Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

Checks with flying records had also shown that the plane was flying very low which is a security risk, Mr Kaseke said.

South African Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister Mr Aziz Pahad said in a statement his ministry would remain in close contact with its ambassador in Zimbabwe Mr Jeremiah Ndou to seek clarity on the circumstances surrounding the incident.

"Should the allegations that those South Africans on board are involved in mercenary activities prove true, this would amount to a serious breach of the Foreign Military Assistance Act which expressly prohibits the involvement of South Africans in military Conventional Arms Control Committee," he said.

Zimbabwe security authorities detained the United States-registered plane on Sunday night after its owners had made false declaration of its cargo and crew.

The capture of 64 suspected mercenaries in Harare on Sunday took a new dimension yesterday in South Africa, the United States, Britain, Democratic Republic of Congo and Equatorial Guinea.

This comes amid contradictory reports over the suspects* mission with Reuters news agency reporting that Equatorial Guinea had arrested a 15-strong "advance party" from the same group while the South African Press Association claimed that the suspected mercenaries were mining contractors travelling to the Democratic Republic of Congo.

SAPA news agency reported that a British company, Logo Logistics Ltd, was operating the impounded plane.

The South African news agency said the company sent it a statement in which it said: "We can make it clear that we have no current or intended business in Zimbabwe and certainly no illegal intentions against its government and people."

Logo told SAPA that what Zimbabwean authorities described as "military" items on board was in fact working equipment such as boots, pipe-bending and wire-cutting tools.

Logo said the aircraft, seized at Harare International Airport on Sunday, was recently purchased and still registered in the United States.

"There is no other link with the US," the company said.

However, authorities in Equatorial Guinea, a country in West Africa, said they had arrested a 15-strong "advance party" from the same group.

"Some 15 mercenaries have been arrested here in Equatorial Guinea and it was connected with that plane in Zimbabwe. They were the advance party of that group," Equatorial Guinea Information Minister Agustin Nse Nfumu told Reuters.

According to Reuters, the arrests come amid speculation among exiled opposition politicians in Equatorial Guinea that a coup was in the offing.

Charles Burrows, a senior executive of Logo Logistics, said most of the people on board were South African and had military experience, but were on contract to four mining companies in Congo.

"They were going to eastern DRC. They stopped in Zimbabwe to pick up mining equipment, Zimbabwe being a vastly cheaper place for such," he said.

Burrows, whose company is registered in Britain*s Channel Islands, denied any connection between the group detained in Harare and those arrested in Equatorial Guinea.

"I haven*t the foggiest idea of what they*re talking about," he said by telephone from London.

South African air traffic control said the plane had left Johannesburg on Sunday and made a stop at Wonderboom airport near Pretoria. From there it flew to the northern South African town of Polokwane, where it took on some 63 passengers and completed departure formalities.

Craig Partridge, a spokesman for South Africa*s Air Traffic and Navigation Services, said the plane had filed full flight plans showing it would travel to Harare and from there to Bujumbura in Burundi on Congo*s eastern border.

In Washington, the State Department said it had no indication that the plane was connected to the US government.

US Federal Aviation Administration records show the plane registered to Dodson Aviation Inc. based in Ottawa, Kansas. Dodson said it had sold the plane about a week ago to an African firm called Logo Ltd.

The white plane with a blue stripe across its body contained an assortment of military hardware that included a rubber boat (dingy), sleeping bags, loud hailers, hammers, sophisticated radio communication equipment, water proof boots and bolt cutters.

According to media reports from South Africa the plane was sold to a South African firm last week.

Jim Pippin the acting general manager for Dodson International, a subsidiary of Dodson Aviation Inc, which is headquartered in Ottawa, Kansas, said the Boeing 727-100 was sold to Logo Logistics.

"The plane was sold by Dodson out of the United States. The company took delivery of the plane over the weekend after it most likely flew out from Florida," Pippin told AFP from Wonderboom airport, just north of Pretoria.

Asked why an internet search showed the plane was still with a US registration in the name of Dodson, Pippin said: "They have not yet had time to do a re-registration."

AFP reports said the owner of a flying school at Wonderboom airport, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the Boeing 727-100 landed there about 8.00am on Sunday.

"They asked me to move some of my aircraft because the jetstream from such a large aircraft could have damaged them," he said.

Peet van Rensburg, a spokesman for Wonderboom airport, confirmed that the plane was at the airport on Sunday, but also said he believed it proceeded to Polokwane.

A separate statement from the South African government, citing information from its ambassador to Zimbabwe, Jerry Ndou, confirmed most of the details but mentioned a third Congolese, which would raise the number of detainees to 65.
"All detainees are being held inunidentified local prison pending the outcome of investigations surrounding the incident," South African Foreign Affairs spokesman Ronnie Mamoepa said. He could not explain the discrepancy in the numbers.
In his statement, Mamoepa said any South Africans involved in mercenary activities were breaking the country's laws. "We do not yet know what they were doing. We have to wait for the outcome of Zimbabwe's investigation," he told Reuters.

Shocking,isn't it?

Are westerners tryin cause a new wave of chaos in Africa,when d continent is now moving towards a new era of quite peace,reconciliation n development?

Whyundermine Africas peace efforts? They'll never leave Africa alone....

@LifeChemist

'Whyundermine Africas peace efforts? They'll never leave Africa alone.... '

A peaceful Africa is not in their interest and besides the business of hired guns is flourishing.

'Mercenaries in Africa's conflicts

The story of the arrests of alleged mercenaries in Zimbabwe and Equatorial Guinea raises the question of paying trained operatives to intervene in African disputes.
Since the start of the era of independence in the 1960s, former soldiers have been hired by foreign governments, rebel movements or even commercial companies to carry out operations that no-one else is capable of performing.
Despite efforts by African governments to stamp out the practice, there seems to be no shortage of men prepared to use their training on behalf of anyone willing to pay the right price.
South African role
The end of apartheid 10 years ago meant a large number of well trained personnel were suddenly on the market, as many whites left the South African army.


We definitely do not like the idea that South Africa is a pool for mercenaries
South African Foreign Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma
There were also a large number of black troops, who had been used by Pretoria down the years to conduct covert operations in Angola, Zambia and further abroad.
Many belonged to the "32 battalion" - as they were known.
Two years ago South Africa was investigating the use of its citizens in Sudan. Then there were reports of South Africans fighting for diamond companies in Sierra Leone.
And then they were flying helicopters in Ivory Coast.
The South African government has expressed its embarrassment over reports that South African mercenaries had been arrested in Equatorial Guinea and Zimbabwe.
Foreign Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma told reporters it was disturbing to hear that "every time" the world dealt with mercenaries, in Africa in particular, South Africans were among them.
"We definitely do not like the idea that South Africa is a pool for mercenaries," she said.
But South Africa is by no means the only source for mercenaries. Others have come from European or US specialist units.

Commercial companies
In recent years the major development in freelance fighting for profit has been the appearance of private military companies which offer their services to governments and to commercial companies.
The best known of these was Executive Outcomes (EO) - initially based in South Africa and involved in Angola and Sierra Leone.


We are established entities, have established sets of principles and employ professional people
Michael Grunberg
Sandline
In Angola, EO employed former South African soldiers and was paid by the Angolan state oil company, Sonangol, to assist the Angolan army in regaining control of the Soyo oilfields from Unita rebels.
It is estimated that EO was paid $40m for its services.
The same company was later involved in supporting the Sierra Leone Government in its attempts to defeat rebels.
Professionals
The British-based company Sandline also helped Sierra Leone fight the Revolutionary United Front rebels.
Michael Grunberg, a commercial adviser for Sandline, told BBC News Online that private military companies like Sandline see themselves as different from the old image of mercenaries.
"We are established entities, have established sets of principles and employ professional people."
He said Sandline operated as a commercial company and wanted to have a reputation that would enhance its business position.
He emphasised that it would not accept contracts from groups or governments that would risk damaging its commercial reputation.
The old guard
But despite this new image, old-style mercenaries have not disappeared and the depressing cycle of wars in the continent means that there are plenty of places for them to fight and new wars that produce new generations of hired guns.


They are accused of atrocities, of fuelling conflicts and of being beyond anyone's control.
One military source who wanted to remain anonymous, told BBC News Online that mercenaries were still very active and could command $10-20,000 a month for their services.

In April 2003, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw warned a UK company against recruiting mercenaries to work in Ivory Coast.
He said he was gravely concerned at reports that Northbridge Services Group - a security company - was recruiting ex-servicemen from Britain, South Africa and France.
The company denied that it was involved in such activities.'
Story from BBC NEWS:

@LifeChemist

Sorry, I'm going to drop another news article. There's more 'freestyle' debate on black mens forum: 'regarding land ownership by whites in Zim.'

Anyway, the interference is not just millitary, it's on every level; diplomatic, political, economic.......



[align=center]Donnelly leaves Zim a defeated, dejected man [/align]
By David Samuriwo


‘SIR Brian Donnelly, the outgoing British ambassador, leaves Zimbabwe a defeated and dejected man. The so-called master spy, who dismally failed to live up to his reputation, will be leaving the country in July this year after three years of combat in which he failed to win a single battle.

To the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, Sir Donnelly's assignment to Zimbabwe would have been much simpler than engineering the bloody disintegration of Yugoslavia had he known how to play his cards. But alas! As soon as he set his foot on Zimbabwean soil, the man blundered endlessly till he exposed himself as the master spy who really never was.

In Blair's opinion, splendid groundwork had already been done for Sir Donnelly by his predecessor, Peter Longworth. Longworth was deeply involved in the transformation of the labour movement, namely, the Zimbabwe Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) into the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) that went on to pocket 54 seats in the parliamentary elections in 2000. Sir Donnelly's most important brief was to ensure that President Robert Mugabe lost the presidential poll. If by any chance President Mugabe won the polls, which he did anyway, a change of government would have to be effected through mass protests.

His bleeps and blunders are too numerous to chronicle but a glimpse into some of these is not only interesting but amazing. As a purported seasoned intelligence officer, Sir Donnelly decided to pull a big one in the commercial farming area of Mhangura. This particular area was ideal for his clandestine operation because of the large population of diehard Rhodesians who formerly occupied vast tracts of land there. In his operational brief, Donnelly wanted to create an impression of lawlessness and chaos on the commercial farms.

Two light aircraft carrying foreign journalists and photographers were hired and paid for by Sir Donnelly. In the meantime, commercial farmers in the area had spread word to their labourers that war veterans and some Zanu-PF youths were coming to loot farm machinery, food and any other valuables. Even their lives were in danger, the labourers were told.

The farm workers were then advised to grab anything they could get hold of in lieu of their packages which the farmers said they would never be able to pay as they were being pushed off the land. There started the false drama which was captured and flashed all over the world by the journalists and photographers hovering in the air in hired planes. Meanwhile, Sir Donnelly smiled all by himself.

The then governor of that province, Cde Peter Chanetsa, was not amused. He phoned Sir Donnelly and openly told him that he was now sending the Air Force of Zimbabwe to come and shoot down the two light aircrafts that were taking pictures and filming a stage- managed looting spree. Minutes after this conversation, the planes disappeared from the skies. Probed by the Press on whether he had talked to Governor Chanetsa on that particular day, Sir Donnelly was evasive. He could neither deny nor confirm the telephone conversation.

Another gaffe in Sir Donnelly's three-year romance with Zimbabwe was the exposure by The Sunday Mail, despite persistent denials by his staff, that the embassy was funding a non- governmental organisation, Amani Trust, which has strong links with the opposition MDC.

On numerous occasions, embassy spokesperson Sophie Honey coolly denied it. During the height of MDC mass protests, Amani bought several residential houses in the high-density suburbs of Glen Norah, Kuwadzana and Budiriro. The premises were then used as safe houses by MDC hit squads and other fugitives.

Unfortunately for Sir Donnelly, Sunday Mail reporters intercepted one such cheque with an amount of $3,6 million payable to and deposited into the Amani Trust account. As usual, spokesperson Honey tried the impossible by making a public pronouncement that distanced her embassy from the safe houses but at the same time admitting that the cheque had indeed come from the British embassy.

The British and Commonwealth Office in London got angry and demanded an explanation from Sir Donnelly on the circumstances surrounding the leakage of the cheque which The Sunday Mail reproduced on its front page on October 13 2002.The revelation embarrassed the British government, which had in the past strongly denied funding opposition politics. Sir Donnelly then sent e-mails to various embassies and high commissions exonerating himself from the fiasco but irreparable damage had already been done to his person and the British government. He became an instant joke in diplomatic circles.

The British ambassador was also caught with his pants down when he interfered with the distribution of drought relief food in Insiza district. This eventually prompted President Mugabe to give him a chilling warning. The President warned that if he continued with such activities, he would be kicked out. National security organs immediately announced that they were placing him under close surveillance 24 hours a day.

Sir Donnelly was alleged to have telephoned non-governmental organisations distributing food aid in the drought-stricken Insiza district directing them to distribute food in areas where the MDC would be holding rallies in preparation for a parliamentary by-election following the death of MDC Member of Parliament George Ndlovu.

Minister of State for Information and Publicity in the President's Office Professor Jonathan Moyo had no kind words for him. "We will not accept that. Mr Donnelly, please stay away from our politics. Leave Insiza alone. We know that he was involved in the destabilisation of Yugoslavia and is attempting to do that here. Let it be known that he will never do a Milosovic in Zimbabwe".

The Zanu-PF candidate went on to win the hotly contested seat.

Professor Moyo described Donnelly as a person who never promoted understanding among citizens of Zimbabwe. Neither has he improved relations between Britain and Zimbabwe. In fact, he has done a lot of damage to relations between the two nations.

It is no secret that Sir Donnelly's brief was to effect a change of government in Zimbabwe. At one time addressing a seminar for the Centre for Peace Initiatives in Africa (CPIA) in Vumba, Donnelly openly stated that the only solution to Zimbabwe's problems was a regime change. In order to strengthen that capacity for regime change, Sir Donnelly made attempts to mould the Zimbabwe Liberation Platform (ZLP) into a political party.

ZLP, which is led by disgruntled former Zanla forces High Command member, Wilfred Mhanda, would receive funding from the Fredrick Ebert Stiftung. Apparently, Sir Donnelly's thinking was that since Mhanda was a high-ranking former freedom fighter, it would be easy for him to make inroads into the formidable Zimbabwe National Liberation War Veterans Association (ZNLWVA), a staunch ally of the ruling Zanu-PF party, and rally its membership behind the new political party. Again, this plot failed to take off the ground as the ZLP, as Sir Donnelly later found out, was only a small group of outcasts lining their pockets with donor funds.

Sir Donnelly will also be remembered for his role in co-ordinating white commercial farmers, foreign and some sections of the local media in derailing the Abuja Accord, which had set parameters to be observed in the country's land reform programme. He periodically released statements purporting that the Zimbabwe Government was not adhering to the accord when, in fact, his embassy was busy organising stage-managed farm occupations. He finally stunned the nation when he said the Abuja Accord was merely a gentleman's agreement and could be thrown into the dustbin anytime the British government felt the interests of their kith and kin — the commercial farmers — were not being adequately addressed.

Personally, I feel this is where the outgoing British ambassador lost the game totally. Here was an opportunity provided on a silver platter by the international community for the British government to play a major role in Zimbabwe's land reform programme but, unfortunately, it was handled by a man who lacked wisdom and foresight. As a result, the British are now just mere spectators in a game in which they were supposed to be the key players.

For Donnelly, the Zimbabwe Government had either to bow down to the demands of the white commercial farmers or face the consequences in the form of a regime change through organised mass protests. Neither happened and Sir Donnelly leaves this beautiful country with his head bowed down and tail tucked between his legs. ‘

Zimbabwe Herald

@lifechemist

I read the article in yesterdays Gaurdian too, and was outraged but not surprised.This is further proof that Afrikan under development is not entirely the fault of Afrikans.

This is the ongoing war being waged against Afrikans, a war that is real and where there are real fatalities. This is not a Biblical debate or a dinner party conversation where those in attendance set the world to rights and then go home safely to their beds.

This is a very real war designed to destabilize the Continent of Afrika so the thatexploitationof it'swealth can continue.

No they will never leave us alone until they are made to! I read the article with increasing glee as these b**tards were exposed in their own Newspaper. What impressed me most was the defiant stance adopted by the Afriakns involved in this clumsy fiasco.

Theshrewdness shown byour Afrikans Brethrenmade me glow with pride and hope. We arefinally growing up.

Wein the Diaspora must start mobilisingour communitiesto give our Afrikan Brothers and Sisters all the supportwe can. Immediatley!

@Vikki & Lifechemist

I wrote about this type of activity on the 10th in another forum unrelated to this, it reads as follows:

"@Ijexa

Thanks for that article. Whilst it loosely relates to this thread. I would love to have another thread about the Mercenaries and their activities in Africa in particular. I have meet a couple personally.

More over I have my own views on them.

By the way did you hear about the attempted coup yesterday in Guiena faso ?

Executive Outcomes and the other mob doing very well in Africa. And there is a requirement for such activities.

However I believe there is a vast pool of African Americans and African British ex service men who could be formed and employed by the African Union utilized to protect elected governments and supress counter insergency operations against "Foreign Aided Rebels" such as in Haiti.

It could operate similar to the French & Spanish Foreign Legion. There are enough high level Staff Officers in the American Army and special forces in the British Army of African descent to make it work.

Western Train soldiers are very effective fighting force if equipt well, and can be deployed to great effect with minial cost and political hassle of seeing "Our Boys in Body Bags" since nobody cries for the loss of a Mercenary. But if used by the African Union an African Foreign Legion would have a great stablizing effect in Africa.

It requires the political will. But regional entities such as ECOWAS have disgraced themselves often pandering to looting and abuses from thier respective countries, although they have been quite effective.

The French Foreign Legion is very much different from your standard Mercenary and Modern Suited with Booted one of today. As it functions like a well disciplined Army. Highly respected in the Modern World as an elite outfit. An African equilerent would be of great benefit.

Still I digress greatly from the topic at hand."

http://www.sabcnews.com/africa/centr...,75666,00.html



http://www.nationnews.com/StoryView....2000%3A00%3A00

@Dada, Can I beg you, when you have time to start a thread on the issues you mentioned. No rush, but beg you do not allow this issue to be forgotten.

The issue of national and international and regional defence strategies is something I have and had a serious involvement in, and for me is one of the most fundamental issues facing us.

As I mentioned in the Zimbabwe thread. This was a key determinant in why Mugabe had to accept particular conditions under the Lanchester House. I attended the private security briefings where detailed military assessments where given, never made public, to the balance of forces and possible outcomes.

Whites from elite The Rhodesia Selous Scouts, South AFrican SAS,[probably with the Austrailian SAS the best white bush fighters in the business] mercenaries by the battallion were pouring into the country. All compounded by ZANLA having to fight a civil war With ZAPU and their white friends. Cuba had already given a massive commitment in ex Portugues Africa and quite rightly said, "Africans sort your shit out".

We have had to face these issues head on in the Caribbean prior to US invasion, in terms of what formal and informal security mechanism we could evolve for regional security. It is no coincidence when the US entered Grenda, they found so many Africans from neighbouring islands, and as far as Jamaica, under local Command and many more were on their way to the country, when we got news the invasion had taken place.

Cuba has long trained our people. and the Yanks intercepted boats of our people returning from the Jose Marte programme, on thier way to Grenada. Hence why places like Grenada must be crushed by any means, nevermind Cuba.

There is definitely a need for All African Contigency Security Planning and Coordinating Mechanisms at every level. Not only on the Continental Integrated Command Model, outlined by Nkrumah, but locally including our own rapid deployment capability.

I am obviously not going to endorse "Executive Outcomes" and white mercenary organisations. But we need mechanism that work for us.

These type of white outfits have been used in almost most modern African conflicts, particularly Angola and Mozambique and why Cuba offered its specialist forces who were deployed against them during these conflicts.

We need our own mechansims which you are in agreement with. But more importantly, having worked in that environmnet, I think the need is even deeper than simple defence purpose. But in terms of training leaders and creating the ideological "esprite de corps" needed to educate our people and raise conciousness, military/security organisations are perhaps the best instruments we have. The security services are your advanced guards or indication of the corruption and all that is wrong in our society and culture.

Leon Trotsky discovered this truth for himself in the creation of the red army, which were the ideological bastion for the Russian Revolution. We are probably more likely to create quality leaders in large numbers via military/security mechanism, who are less corruptible than from any other sector of our society.

So my dear Dada, I beg you as you have given serious thought on this matter, you are in the position to take leadership, if only in just outlining your thoughts and letting others run with it.

I rememeber when similar issues came up about the Second world war, we have plenty brothers[largely] with knowledge or interest in military issues Africaman, Kwesi, Cashmoney et al are just two names that came to mind. We have sisters like Talibah who definitely has an interest, and no doubt, others. There is a sister who on the Forum who was in the armed forces, and saw service, and we spoke in great deal one to one. So we have the people to chew this over. Doesn't need a whole heap.

So when you have time....

Fred niceone.gif

@Talibah. Thanks for that link sis. You are always there sis and can be relied on.

Fredclp)

@Fredblack

Reference your last post. (No pun intended)

You are truely a wise man.

What I was suggesting and what you elaborated on is very serious stuff indeed.

Small point of note. Yes I respect Australian S.A.S . But I have never been a great fan of the S.A.S in general(for personal reasons) I do have a begrudging respect from them.

But I am sorry to disappoint you but. I do really think that the issues at hand should not be displayed on a web site. Not for world or CIA, MI5 or the rest viewing.

In the past the use of funding small bands of insurgents by the CIA or to a lessor degree M15 was a very cost effective way of installing the "Right Man" in power.

I believe that what we are discussing is a very practical and easyly applied counter measure that would be very cost effective for African stability.

It would be worth having people in a closed room putting their head together and working out a policy proposal for the African Union.

But I sorry Fredblack I am going to bail out of this discussion as I know it's gonna be monitored.

@Dada. No problem whatsoever with what you said.

Without elborating or debating as this is not a debating matter. But my view is this about what you have said as a general principle.

There is no such thing as maximum security or security period. All there is is the minimisation of risk. Total security would require no action or discussion.

But concerning the internet my view is this. Complete coverage of things like this requires resources which most agencies even the CIA do not have. Security is based on perception management. I give you the perception that I am so all powerful and seeing and all knowing that you act accordingly.

There are too many examples where people have walked into highly secured places and done things which could never happen, if these people are as powerful as they would like us to believe.

That is absoultely rubbish, as anyone with practical experience from a management perspective would know the type of resources to monitor any possible threat is so much that all the over time budgets in the world cannot cover it. Even if you can recruit people it takes time and experience to get them up to speed etc. The CIA and FBI are struggling and behind the game big time concerning the Middle East.

So the chances of stumbling and being able to action any thing of use on a site like this, I think very neglible. Unless you are a complete fool and do people's work for them by providing them a god send. As it requires a whole heap of work and money, for very little in concrete and practical terms.. The US have known about Cuba's activities for years, via sattelites etc. Problem is they can't stop it. That type of thing...

But that is neither here nor there.

We will continue our scheming elsewhere no doubt. But good to see brothers thinking about very very serious things.


Subject done..

Fredniceone.gif