Why Is Africa Poor? - Page 3

Bredder Tukoma · (#51 (**permalink**))

Omaar

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Isnt that the same as economics ultimatley. Whats the point of political gains if it dont help your economy.

Economics is a benifit of it, but it's not the MAIN purpose.

When I say politically, I'm talking about ethnic and religous ties that stretch back generations even before European colonialism when a lot of Arabs and their proginy established political parties and secret societies around the top half of the continent.

Now those ties aren't a strong and people aren't willing to share the money and finances across borders; but the political and ethnic ties are still there.

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With who. Africans?

Like the Baath Party of Iraq and Syria.

Those 2 countries didn't share economics with eachother but they shared political and cultural interests.

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How about regional unity.Were not Irag and Syria part of the Arab League. I dont know there history butI would expect them both pre- Iraq war to be part of an Arabic regional political fedaration.

All part of the same problem. eg. If a classic Uncle Tom identifies with Europeans then it doesnt matter how many resources he takes advantage of. He will utilise those resources for who he identifies with.

Let's take a step back....

What should be the top prioritiess for a nation and it's leaders?

Excatly what I mean by priorities. If you are culturally beholden to a foreign culture then as a matter of course your priorities will be to emulate that culture.

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Its all very well saying that Africa should adopt foreign systemsand work within those limits to look after its people. But if the very system is not palatable in your country thenthe plan flop from the start. If the very systemsyou employ are set up with you as theexploited partyhow can youprovide for your people. Even the education system will severley limit and stunt your population if they are not able to draw on the knowledge and experianceof their ancestors.

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Every human group has been able /or does do this to survive. Its only the African on the continent who has totaly dismissed their culture at the official level/ and the African who taken to the Americas who was forced into the unique situation of not being about to draw on collective memory customs etc to survive. Although even in that circumstance our ancestral memory was constantly reinforced by new arrivals. Especailly in the Caribbean.

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I dont see how even at the basic level a country can do this and prosper in a hostile world system without utilising this basic human practice.

Or do you mean that many cultures have adotped the Euro economic systems as the only way there is.

Well I didn't say that, but I believe it is the case.

But interest (if that's what you're refering to) has been practiced since time immemorial.

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No it wasnt ineterest. rather land distribution/ ownership laws/ andinternalways of distributingpolitical powerand resources.

Well people on blacknet are not adopting English customs and culture wholseale are they. Any black that learns Arabic is always as a consequence of religion.

Ha ha haaa......they don't have to ADOPT them....they already HAVE them!

Whether we come from U.S., Jamaica, or Nigeria most of the black people on here are English speaking becaue our ancestors have already been forced by the English into accepting their culture and way of life.

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Yes granted. But those three examples you gave are not comparable by any means.

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Jamicans speak African English.If we think of language as a cable. The wire/conductor is English/ but the system of delivery (AC/DC/) is African. African America has a less pronouncedform. And Nigerians will be bilingual in the main.

Being forced into accepting a language and culture and willingly giving up your culture and language are two fifferent things dont you think.

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So you're perfectly happy with you and your family living and thinking the way ENGLISH white people forced you to live; but when it comes to Arabs or Islam then all of a sudden it becomes demonic.

But Carribeans do not live and think the same as English. Superficially maybe.. but they are two quite distinct cultures. Carribean culture naturally shares and is slanted far more towrads African culture than any European culture you can mention. A look at our language /festivals/ and arts shows this plainly.

Malcolm must of been talking about blacks in white majority countries. Because looking at Jamaica religion/ the church has been a BIG factor in the way people relate to their circumstances and still do. No doubt.

Ahhhh....but how do you feel about it?

Again, will you call your own peope brainwashed and colonized because most WestIndians are deeply involved in Christianity and it's ingrained in their culture by the English?

Yes definaltely. All day/ every day. And because of our specific history it is even morea point of contention. Do you not thinbk many Christian missionaries were not in the Carribean placating and trying to get Africans to self denouce their rebellious and independentaspirations.

Chrsitianitydisarms and miseducatesthepeople inthe WI.

Taysense · (#52 (**permalink**))

Tahliba wrote:

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Taysense wrote:

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Tahliba( sounds arabic)... Still sounds arabic.

respect sis

Anyways, you have to realize that just going on the internet will not mean finding the truth, you have to dig through layers of lies and propaganda. (despite appearences I am not a great fan of the internet for educational purposes, because you have to selective. I am a strong believer in looking for historical evidence -both primary and secondary-and reading books)

I think I am starting to understand what your saying and I do agree that economic colonialism is still in effect in Africa even after independence. But I was looking at why the country was poor even before colonialism, why was it that europeans and arabs were succeeding and trading. Whoa!!!!

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Taysense now this is where you are showing your complete ignorance(I honestly don't have the patience to put that in a way that sounds less offensive, so please don't take it with malice) Who were the Europeans and Arabs trading with?...think about that. Why did the Europeans go in search of a route to Africa? Why did they want to cut out the middleman(arabs)?

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Europeans were travelers and they were willing to learn from other people and bring things of use back to help their society grow, they were explorers and did not stay stagnant. When the crusaders invaded the arab and Islaamic world they were so impressed by what they seen that they took it back to their own country to bring them out of the dark age and into the light. They took in the silks, literary works and perfected and used themfor their on purpose. This is the kind of ingenuity that we need. The ability to burrow from other cultures without necessarily loosing your own. The europeans plundered, pillaged and stole, but they didn't stay and wait for their enemies. If our African ancestors also explored their surrounding making allies and armies, than I assure they would have grown and become wealthy incorporating others in their vast armies as theytraveled the world. Africans have a tendency to enjoy what little comforts they posses instead of looking at along-term better situation.

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You're right slavery was the main reason why America ((I never stated this) was able to quickly transform it's self from an agricultural based system to a money and industrial based system.(and actually America likemuch of Europe practised both systems side by side, infact the US is a perfect example of one half of the country beingpredominately industrial/service sector while the other half is agricultural)The demise of feudalism in Europe was due to land ownership becoming less important(land ownership being less important?!?! It still isvery very important. You need tolook into the history of fuedalism.and not the only way of making income, people learned(you are usingcontemporary terms now...how did people learn to branch out? Where did they branch out to?to branch out and stopped the dependence on the lords forging new relationships and taking controll of their own lifes.who's dependence on the lords?

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yes yes yes, I never said they totally abandoned agriculture, but due to technological advancements and resurgence of new industries people had more options and not stuck perpetual farming.

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The basic elements of feudalism were LORDS VASSALS FIEFDOMS, the lords controlled the fiefs that the VASSALS operated in and made their living from, now when the vassals have other means of making money that is another way ofmaking an income that does not include farmingor using the land than their debt to the lord is nullified and he has no control over them, giving greater autonomy to the vassal and the ability to purchase and own his own land. Land ownership shifted and VASSALS became nobles giving themselves independence.

But It's not all residues of colonialism that is making african countries poor, the problem with some Africanations is they focus heavily on one productfor examplelivestock and become dependent on trade,And you cannot see how this is a result of an historic relationship with the west?not only that but most of them arenet exporters which hurts the economy and continues the dependence.

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I just don't understand why African countries can't establish economic organizations of their own to counteract all these regulations and limitations put on them by NATO, WTO, and other corrupted alliances. The problem is the leaders who give free rein to MNC's without making them pay hard taxes or even forcing them to re-invest some of their earning in the country. When your leaders and the MNC's have identicle agenda's, than the vassal who works twice as hard will be exploited twice as much.

Capitalism/ Free market has it's pro's and cons, but right now their is no better alternative. Competition is key to sucess and growth. The greatest conspiracy theory of all. So what are the pro's of capitalism free market?

C'mon we know that their is no true free economy unless you count Somalia, but most countries have a mix of both governmental intervention and autonomy for the businessman. But competition breeds growth, however with that said I don't advocate total privatization. I can name all the pro's of Capitalism and you would too if you were a businesswoman and wanted to make money. Making profit doesn't mean compromising ethics.

Take a man beat him till he can barely walk and than challenge him to arace where all the obstacles are placed in his lane. Then when he fails to keep up, keeps stumbling over the obstacles, let alone winask him why he is unable to compete.

Why would he race in the first place? no the man needs to recuperate and get his revenge at a later time when his healthy.

MarcusGarveyLives · (#53 (**permalink**))

Try reading this:

Good luck.

Omaar · (#54 (**permalink**))

Mansa

With who. Africans?

Yes...Arab Africans.

How about regional unity. Were not Irag and Syria part of the Arab League. I dont know there history but I would expect them both pre- Iraq war to be part of an Arabic regional political fedaration.

This is why there needs to be an African Union or aUnited States of Africa.

Excatly what I mean by priorities. If you are culturally beholden to a foreign culture then as a matter of course your priorities will be to emulate that culture.

True, but your FIRST priorities should be to feed and protect your people, not maintain a separate identy to stand apart and brag about.

That's called tribalism and doesn't pay the bills.

Let us solve our basic problem first, then we can worry about auditioning for the role of black Messiah.

Its all very well saying that Africa should adopt foreign systems and work within those limits to look after its people. But if the very system is not palatable in your country then the plan flop from the start. If the very systems you employ are set up with you as the exploited party how can you provide for your people. Even the education system will severley limit and stunt your population if they are not able to draw on the knowledge and experiance of their ancestors.

I'm not "just" saying that Africa should adopt foreign systems; I was saying that it would be BETTER to adopt a foriegn system other than the failing ones many African nations have today.
But no system in the world will work if you don't maintain it and adhere to it.

Often, it's not the system itself thats the problem but the incompitent people running it and abusing it.
Regardless of the system we're using whether it's foreign or traditoinal, we all know lying, cheating, and stealing the people's money is wrong.

Every human group has been able /or does do this to survive. Its only the African on the continent who has totaly dismissed their culture at the official level/ and the African who taken to the Americas who was forced into the unique situation of not being about to draw on collective memory customs etc to survive. Although even in that circumstance our ancestral memory was constantly reinforced by new arrivals. Especailly in the Caribbean.

I don't know what Africans you speak of who have totally dismissed thier culture, certainly not the ones I've met. But let me say this:

It's not so much of dissing your own culture and worshipping another; it's more about BALANCE.
Being able to adapt in the world and maintain the good of your culture while learning and mastering other cultures and systems that may improve your life.
Every society is obligated to grow and expand on thier own base.

I dont see how even at the basic level a country can do this and prosper in a hostile world system without utilising this basic human practice.

I recon because there are more basic human NEEDS than basic human practices.

Everyone NEEDS food, clothing, and shelter....but how we attain these needs vary from one individual to the next and some individuals may not even know how to attain them period.

That's the problem we're facing in the continent today; people not knowing how to DO FOR SELF but instead are increasingly finding themselves having to rely on outside support.

Yes granted. But those three examples you gave are not comparable by any means.

Jamicans speak African English. If we think of language as a cable. The wire/conductor is English/ but the system of delivery (AC/DC/) is African. African America has a less pronounced form. And Nigerians will be bilingual in the main.

Being forced into accepting a language and culture and willingly giving up your culture and language are two fifferent things dont you think.

Now wait a minute.....are you trying to pull some wool over mine eyes bro?

There is NO such thing as "African English".
Either your speaking English properly or poorly but you're still speaking it.

You're trying to justify deviations that developed in the grammar of AfroAmericans and West Indians by calling those deviations and mispronounciations "African".

Even if you use the Ebonics Theory about us haveing a genetic disposition to structure certain words and phrases, this varies from one African society to the next...it's in no way UNIVERSALLY AFRICAN.

But regardless of being forced to accept a culture or voluntarily accepting it, it's still foreign to us. So according to you it should be disguarded, right?

So until we all stop speaking English and practicing the culture of our IMMEDIATE ancestors...we will remained mentally opppressed slaves.

My only question is which ancestors do you want to honor the most?

-Our distant ancestors of Africa who'd reject the English language and culture as well as foreign religions?

-Or our immediate ancestors like our grand and great grand parents who accepted the English culture and language and welcomed a day when we could peacefully fit in with the society in which we lived?

Remember, you can't serve 2 masters...you gotta make a choice brutha Mansa!

But Carribeans do not live and think the same as English. Superficially maybe.. but they are two quite distinct cultures. Carribean culture naturally shares and is slanted far more towrads African culture than any European culture you can mention. A look at our language /festivals/ and arts shows this plainly.

Caribbeans many not live and think exactly like the British, but guess what?

It's all WESTERN CULTURE.

Even if it's peppered with a few reminant African traits, it's generally a part of Western culture as far as the language, marriage and family structure, and business transactions.

Yes definaltely. All day/ every day. And because of our specific history it is even more a point of contention. Do you not thinbk many Christian missionaries were not in the Carribean placating and trying to get Africans to self denouce their rebellious and independent aspirations.

Chrsitianity disarms and miseducates the people in the WI.

Glad to see we can agree on something!

Atleast I now you're not a hypocrite.

Marcus

Most of us know how Europe underdeveloped Africa....

We're just having a problem finding a common solution.

Tahliba · (#55 (**permalink**))

Taysense wrote:

"Europeans were travelers and they were willing to learn from other people and bring things of use back to help their society grow, they were explorers and did not stay stagnant. When the crusaders invaded the arab and Islaamic world they were so impressed by what they seen that they took it back to their own country to bring them out of the dark age and into the light. They took in the silks, literary works and perfected and used themfor their on purpose. This is the kind of ingenuity that we need. The ability to burrow from other cultures without necessarily loosing your own. The europeans plundered, pillaged and stole, but they didn't stay and wait for their enemies. If our African ancestors also explored their surrounding making allies and armies, than I assure they would have grown and become wealthy incorporating others in their vast armies as theytraveled the world. Africans have a tendency to enjoy what little comforts they posses instead of looking at along-term better situation. "

Omar wrote:

"Marcus

Most of us know how Europe underdeveloped Africa....

We're just having a problem finding a common solution. "

Omar we will find no solutions untill ALL of us know how Europe underdeveloped Africa...If we don't know what the problem is, how can we find solutions

Sblizzy · (#56 (**permalink**))

I think if those who have stolen from Africa clean up and repair what they have messed up somehow, would be a great start to getting back to greatness.

Omaar · (#57 (**permalink**))

Tahliba

Omar we will find no solutions untill ALL of us know how Europe underdeveloped Africa...If we don't know what the problem is, how can we find solutions

Ohh....then what you're saying is we'll never find any solutions.....

Not only will ALL of us never know, but because of various reasons and circumstances like lack of media coverage, miseducation, and dire circumstances of our own MOST black people outside of Africa will never know or understand what the problem is.

We can't wait on them to wake up and smell the coffee.

It's up to a talented and qualified few to identify the solution and map out an effective plan to remedy the situation.

BTW....do you know who I am?

Bredder Tukoma · (#58 (**permalink**))

Omaar wrote:

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Mansa

With who. Africans?

Yes...Arab Africans.

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Yes and they dont share any ethnic or cultural links with the real Africans.

Excatly what I mean by priorities. If you are culturally beholden to a foreign culture then as a matter of course your priorities will be to emulate that culture.

True, but your FIRST priorities should be to feed and protect your people, not maintain a separate identy to stand apart and brag about.

That's called tribalism and doesn't pay the bills.

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Who said anything about tribalism. So if European culture is outright rejected then it becomes a issue of tribalism??? How comeit wanst an issueof tribalism in the history nbooks when Englsih became the dominant language in the British Isles at the expense of Celtic/ Gallic/ Scottish/ and geordies.

Let us solve our basic problem first, then we can worry about auditioning for the role of black Messiah.

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That is one of thebasic problem. Its manesfestation is hunger /war and the rest.

Its all very well saying that Africa should adopt foreign systems and work within those limits to look after its people. But if the very system is not palatable in your country then the plan flop from the start. If the very systems you employ are set up with you as the exploited party how can you provide for your people. Even the education system will severley limit and stunt your population if they are not able to draw on the knowledge and experiance of their ancestors.

I'm not "just" saying that Africa should adopt foreign systems; I was saying that it would be BETTER to adopt a foriegn system other than the failing ones many African nations have today.

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But they have adopted foreign systems. So which next foreign one do you suggest the continent tries?

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But no system in the world will work if you don't maintain it and adhere to it.

Often, it's not the system itself thats the problem but the incompitent people running it and abusing it.
Regardless of the system we're using whether it's foreign or traditoinal, we all know lying, cheating, and stealing the people's money is wrong.

Yes and this happens in all countries too.Corruption in itself isnt the root cause or no country would be succesful. Rathetr its the weak economic state most of these countries are in that allows corruption to flourish.

Every human group has been able /or does do this to survive. Its only the African on the continent who has totaly dismissed their culture at the official level/ and the African who taken to the Americas who was forced into the unique situation of not being about to draw on collective memory customs etc to survive. Although even in that circumstance our ancestral memory was constantly reinforced by new arrivals. Especailly in the Caribbean.

I don't know what Africans you speak of who have totally dismissed thier culture, certainly not the ones I've met. But let me say this:

I did say at the official (i.e govermental and educational level).
It's not so much of dissing your own culture and worshipping another; it's more about BALANCE.
Being able to adapt in the world and maintain the good of your culture while learning and mastering other cultures and systems that may improve your life.
Every society is obligated to grow and expand on thier own base.

Adapting is all good. But the key is as you said grow and expand on their own base.

I dont see how even at the basic level a country can do this and prosper in a hostile world system without utilising this basic human practice.

I recon because there are more basic human NEEDS than basic human practices.

How do humans attain basic needs if not through basic practices.

Everyone NEEDS food, clothing, and shelter....but how we attain these needs vary from one individual to the next and some individuals may not even know how to attain them period.

That's the problem we're facing in the continent today; people not knowing how to DO FOR SELF but instead are increasingly finding themselves having to rely on outside support.

I agree.

Yes granted. But those three examples you gave are not comparable by any means.

Jamicans speak African English. If we think of language as a cable. The wire/conductor is English/ but the system of delivery (AC/DC/) is African. African America has a less pronounced form. And Nigerians will be bilingual in the main.

Being forced into accepting a language and culture and willingly giving up your culture and language are two fifferent things dont you think.

Now wait a minute.....are you trying to pull some wool over mine eyes bro?

There is NO such thing as "African English".
Either your speaking English properly or poorly but you're still speaking it.

You're trying to justify deviations that developed in the grammar of AfroAmericans and West Indians by calling those deviations and mispronounciations "African".

Sorry but taking what I know best the language of Jamica is not simply a deviation and a series of mispronounciations. It is governed by grammatical rules / rules that satisfy all common tests for languages. This is why it is spoken as standard by the majority of the population. Its as much a language as the Koromantee (white colonial term) language which developed as a result of Africans from varying different regions living inindependent Marroon socities. Indeed it is even chronicled by the English that English was used as a unifying language by the Maroons but later they developed their own language for intereaction that was African in its entirety but has no direct parallel on the continent. An amazing feat in my view while living under virtual siege in gurrealla warfare. But a fact all the same.

However the colonial view has always been that the Africanstandard of English is inferior and primitive. Jamaican language is standard throughout the island.It allows communication between all members of society. Even the ruling class appeal to it and use it to pacify and identify with their people.

All it is is that the powers that be are still smitten by European cultural superioty as such that they do not sanction the languageneither standardiseor develop itfurther. So you have a situation where children who 99% will speak Jamaican are taught in standard English therefore re-enforcing on the unconcious level a degree of cultural and linguistic inferiority. The same dynamics as what you will get in Africa no doubt.

But regardless of being forced to accept a culture or voluntarily accepting it, it's still foreign to us. So according to you it should be disguarded, right?

If at the epense of language then yes. Language is too important and a source of pride and inspiration to a countryto be disregared.

So until we all stop speaking English and practicing the culture of our IMMEDIATE ancestors...we will remained mentally opppressed slaves.

Or if we dont develop and standardise our forms of English/ French/ Spanish/ especially in the carribean /where the effect ofliving and developing culture in a black majority country cannot be denied/ the the answer is Yes.

In Africa the same applies with far more reachingconsequneces. Being the base where blacks are most equipped (theorectically) to do reject outright European or Arabic languages.

My only question is which ancestors do you want to honor the most?

-Our distant ancestors of Africa who'd reject the English language and culture as well as foreign religions?

-Or our immediate ancestors like our grand and great grand parents who accepted the English culture and language and welcomed a day when we could peacefully fit in with the society in which we lived?

Sorry but I dont know about America but my great grand parents definatly did not want to fit within the society they were in. They wanted to burn and destroy the source of their enslavement and the society. And did so countless times. And this acceptance you speak of was only partial at best. They developed language/ culture and traditions/ festivals/ their arts all in the spirit of their ancestors. From Reggae music/ to our former Jankanoo festivals/ to the craft arts/ to dance hall music/ to our funeral rites/ and our persistant and constant belief in duppy and other devious spirits/ to obeah man.

Remember, you can't serve 2 masters...you gotta make a choice brutha Mansa!

No the soucre of my immediate ancestors rejection of African cultutre and the culture they built is held in as high regard to the cultural defenders of old.There is no polarisation there.

But Carribeans do not live and think the same as English. Superficially maybe.. but they are two quite distinct cultures. Carribean culture naturally shares and is slanted far more towrads African culture than any European culture you can mention. A look at our language /festivals/ and arts shows this plainly.

Caribbeans many not live and think exactly like the British, but guess what?

It's all WESTERN CULTURE.

Id like you to speak to a white man and hear him speak of the Western Culture of the carribean. Yes it exists but it is not the dominant culture. Afriocan carribean culture is a culture unto itself. Much more so when the polluting effects of Christianity are taken out the equation.

Even if it's peppered with a few reminant African traits, it's generally a part of Western culture as far as the language, dont hold that as valid.marriage / a universal trait/and family structure, traditional family structure of Caribeansdoes not differ from African family structures. How is the system of extended families and Granny as wise old head of familyEuropean unless you are talking Victorian England.and business transactions. Well so are Africa's transactions. In fact all the above could be levelled at the continent.Especailly in Urban areas.

Yes definaltely. All day/ every day. And because of our specific history it is even more a point of contention. Do you not thinbk many Christian missionaries were not in the Carribean placating and trying to get Africans to self denouce their rebellious and independent aspirations.

Chrsitianity disarms and miseducates the people in the WI.

Glad to see we can agree on something!

Atleast I now you're not a hypocrite.

You shouldnt expect the worst of your brotherman..