An Epal sent me this:

http://users.utu.fi/~jarhav/Africa2.html
We as a people have a long way to go. Our problems are on these shores
and beyond.

My response:

I disagree. The solution is in "Our problems are on these shores and beyond."

In 1865 we as a people could not fathom the idea of integration. Now in 2005 we as a people can not fathom the idea of segregation.

Just as other cultures (i.e. not races cause there is only one race) we should seek a common invisible language.

On the other hand, I wonder how many 'other' folks would be peeking over our shoulders seeking to learn that same 'common' language...

However is it time to think: Sovereignty?

1. Supremacy of authority or rule as
exercised by a sovereign or sovereign
state.
2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
3. Complete independence and self-government.
A territory existing as an independent
state.

What do you think?

Fine

I too enjoy the prognosis this man gives but it is fatally flawed. Same here never been to South Africa but see similarities here

(1) Blacks cannot manage a modern industrial democratic society;

Show me one society involving whites only and now blacks included in which the majority were involved in every decision making or democratic society.

From Wikipedia
Democracy is a form of government in which policy is decided by the preference of the majority in a decision-making process.

None. Even in white countries and still today the decision makers were those that owned and controlled land and resources meaning you had some way to protect it from enemies. That is the basis for wealth. I have never seen any country in which the majority were making everyday every minute political, economical, social, and moral decisions. Decision making is not as easy as just voicing 'yea' or 'nay'. Somebody has to be doing the work. In case of whites and blacks I do not have to go further.

(2) blacks know this and would never think of denying it were it not for white liberals insisting otherwise;

If you dont actual control the land under your feet you walk on but another group keep insisting they do with guns bombings massacres etc, I would think the same thing over time. But this had to be insistant as in over time. From day one blacks did beleive the brutal white is crazy the 'devil' but it took time, threats, massacres, blood, etc, a new generation to have a change of mind and now heart on brutal whites. Because if you consider yourself nothing and someone else something, then it equal nothing like Ray Charles would say. This only applies to blacks who live under the ways of the West and have these type of penniless thought. Let me also include liberal whites who keep insisting.

(3) except for those black elites who hope to take power, black rule is in no one's interest, especially not blacks;

This man has not talked to black elites because they do not talk about black rule. Black rule from the west anywhere comes from intellectual and academic ciricles. Hardly at all ever from the elite or the non academic world. Maybe elite means educated so I would need more information to examine this one.

(4) blacks know this better than anyone and are terrified of black rule.

Because you know something it does not mean its the truth. I see why perhaps we would want whites to raise our birth children because underneath it all we dont want our children to be terrified of their own black mother and father decision making or rules. Now that is insanity. This type of thought occur because you usual cannot control your circumstance or if you can no way to defend it. It similar to the inner city black woman who has a child out of wedlock, because she sees that her future and the babies will be filled with turmoil and hardship she had but double, lack of control, she decides to abandon it to more capable hands. It took time for these blacks to realize his 4) point. Seeing whites control their circumstance and are able to transfer their wealth, education, etc and you cannot is not in any form democracy. That is admirable trait the rest of the world sees in whites. The future of blacks will be on the use of all resources and decision making at home and in the immediate community. That will determine whether black rule is warranted. As of yet, we havent exhausted this option.

If short with our greedy selves if you look to gain like the black elite he mentions in 3) then thoughts of 4) would not even be considered but if you feel a great loss because in the West from school age till death its about our own gain not ehat you can fashion from your own hands then most likely you will be dead on stuck his proofs above.

Umbrar

get the impression that a lot of Black people are shocked by me because I think most White people are stupid. There are three kinds of White people, smart, dumb and brainy. The majority of Whites are in the dumb category, the smart category are knowledgable but not necessarily exceptionally intelligent, the brainy group consists of people like Freud, Einstein, Oppenheimer.

Bill Gates is in the smart group and Steve Wozniak is in the brainy group. Bill Gates is a lot richer than Steve Wozniak. We can thank IBM and Seattle Computers for that.

But anyway Black people doubt their intelligence more than Whites. I think it is the result of psychological sabotage in grammar school. I started ignoring teachers and reading sci-fi in 4th grade so I think I accidentally protected myself. So I ended up wierd

You're right.

From my observations, there are smart and stupid people in just about the same proportions in every race.

The difference beteen Black folks and White folks I've noticed is whites who know they aren't so smart will readily allow whites who ARE smart to run the show while they assume other positions like laborer, soldier, or police officer. They accept their limitations. We won't do that.

EVERY Black man has to be the chief and have some input.

You have to deal with a brutha who can't even spell his own name, but he wants to be governer or a city with his own private military.

Nobody want's to get their hands greasy or dirty.


If we became sovereign and you asked some of these bruthazto do some work; they'll look at youlike you're crazy and say:

"Work....damn I thought that's why we got our own country....so we wouldn't have to work no mo' "

((shakes head while lol....))

Dear umbrachist: U are right. But remember White Supremacy is a world system that is locked into all of this chao madness, globally.. (It is vast and intricate).

The dumb group that you mentiondo not even recognize that this power exists to, by and for them.

The smart group [i.e. like Bill Gates] know and take full advantage of the sytem.

There are [4] stages of White Supremacy:

1. Establishment--getting the systemstarted

2. Maintenance--keeping the systemoiled and running

3. Expansion--victims borne in to system everyday

4. Refinement--where WS no longer looks like it is what it is. Not all white people are racism, but those that are know that they are and know how to use this fact to their best advantage....



Fine blktype



Dr. Neely Fuller, "The United Independent Compensatory Code/System/Concept" -- book about the thoughts, speech and actions of victims of racism...

Dear Thoth B3--Onestep at a time. I "meant" knowing the meaning, grasping, and then establishingsovereignty here, in America first.And then global sovereignty, second.

Fine blktype

Omarr

The difference beteen Black folks and White folks I've noticed is whites who know they aren't so smart will readily allow whites who ARE smart to run the show while they assume other positions like laborer, soldier, or police officer. They accept their limitations. We won't do that.

EVERY Black man has to be the chief and have some input.

You have to deal with a brutha who can't even spell his own name, but he wants to be governer or a city with his own private military.

Nobody want's to get their hands greasy or dirty.


If we became sovereign and you asked some of these bruthazto do some work; they'll look at youlike you're crazy and say:

"Work....damn I thought that's why we got our own country....so we wouldn't have to work no mo' "

((shakes head while lol....))

I really wish many black men and women would step up and be chief. I see no wrong in it. That will give our people needed experience whether good or bad. Just as the individual need experience like work etc, a people need an experience for themselves too. At least we would know what is going to work for us as a people and what doesn't. This has happen to us before not to long ago in the US.

The first time was during slavery with a famous Black America Benjamin Banneker. I can't recall the book at this time I'll try to give it if anyone wants to know but basically what I try to recall. It is said that his first ancestor I believe it was his grandfather or great grandfather from Africa came to the US from the Dogon tribe in West Africa infamous for their astrological astronomical agricultural thinking and applications and the Dogon did not have a telescope either and where his last name Banneker translated into some tribe name or status in Africa. In Africa, the Dogon seem to live a quiet life compared to the neighboring larger tribes around them because their numbers are not so large. This was testified by a continental Africans of that region in American when asked about them. Also the Dogon use a counting system based on the count of 8 like count all your fingers excluding the thumb rather than the Roman numeral count to 10. All of this background is said to been reflected in Benjamin Banneker because basically he had to learn this while in family life. Going to school was not an option. During the bloody days of slavery, a group of white men observed this one black man Benjamin Banneker grandfather or great grandfather was not working and ask the slaves around him why he was not working. The slaves responded that he is royalty and we need to be doing this type of work.

Another time was just after slavery, at the time of Reconstruction. Black people were free but with that in mind we had problems we had needs like feeding clothing and furnishing our new life of freedom. Many of us waited on the government to do this for us but the only thing government ensured was our freedom from slavery. It was up to these new chiefs to set up businesses, farms, schools, etc and to seek black talent to run these new things our people engaged in. There was black man who ran for office but did such a poor job as governor with no degree and excluded from the political process, that he went back to being a laborer. The other black laborer would call him 'governor'. That is where we discover great men and woman from the average to the independent in our race in America. That is when being a teacher of any kind was welcomed greatly in our communities. Now being a teacher is considered a hellish occupation compared to being a bus driver or garbage collector making twice as much. Unless you work at some famous ivy league university or black college having a high status in the department you teach. With whites taking leadership positions in every field we dont get to use this talent. Also it takes away from black people as a people our ability to see ourselves involved in all operations in society. White people are not bad but the cruel and greedy ones do hamper progress for us as a people in using our collective people experience. But I do see change happening.

In South Africa I would say they are going through the same thing since apartheid ended and the black urban people just dont know where to begin. They can certainly look to Black American during the time of Reconstruction if they so choose. We share many similarities in a great way.

Dear umbrachist

You said be specific:

I gave you (4)logical definitions for the word sovereignty. Most people do not even know what the word means