Chief Wole Olanipekun (SAN) is the immediate past president of the Nigerian Bar Association and former attorney general and commissioner of justice in Ondo State. In this interview with Ekiti State Correspondent Gbenga Sodeinde, Olanipekun speaks on constitution amendment, police welfare and corruption, among others.

Excerpts:

Do you think constitution amendment will produce ideal document for Nigerians?
The Nigerian 1999 Constitution did not come about in the normal usual traditional and constitutional way of making constitution, yet it has produced the government, it has produced this system. I have criticised the constitution over and over when I was the president of Nigeria Bar Association (NBA). We visited President Olusegun Obasanjo in November 2002, we gave him a lot of advice and suggestions and one of them was the overhauling of the constitution. We even suggested to him that, Mr. President, why don't you let us amend this constitution to make political office holders spend a term of five years.
Immediately the President was sworn in, we also set up a committee and we wrote a report and submitted to the President. A lot of suggestions were made as to what would happen to the constitution. Then you will expect that a lot of questions will arise naturally since 1999 to date, almost a period of seven years, why did we not sit down to amend the constitution or make a new one for ourselves until now? I believe that Nigerians deserve a new constitution. We should be preparing for elections now, all elections should be conducted between now and September so that we'll have enough time to go to the tribunal so that we don't have a repeat performance of what happened in 2003 whereby three years after election had been conducted, petitions were still hanging in some of our courts. That of Delta is still on, but nobody is thinking about that, instead, we are now dissipating our energy on third term and whether we should amend the constitution. The President in his own wisdom set up his own conference headed by renowned and an internationally acclaimed jurist, Niki Tobi. He submitted the report to him, but he hasn't done anything with that report. What Mr. President did was that he went to the National Assembly he gave that report to them, he said do whatever you want to do to it. But we know there are some hidden agenda. Those who can read between the lines will appreciate that all of a sudden, we are now saying let us amend the constitution. I said it is unfair to Nigeria, it is unfair to the constitution, and it is unfair to the spirit of democracy. Why rushing and why by all means do you say okay you want to complete all the jobs? It is not possible for any leader, whether a king, a dictator or a democratically elected president or prime minister to complete the entire works of the country. It is not possible because, again, no man is God. So other people will take over, that is the essence of life. It is like a relay race. I was very good in relay race in those days, but then you cannot do it alone, you have to exchange baton.
Gen. Abdulsalami Abubakar handed over to Obasanjo; it was an exchange of baton. Can't Gen. Obasanjo handover to somebody come May 29, 2007? One person will start from where he ended.
There is again unfortunate aspect of Nigeria. We don't love measuring government by enduring policies, which are put in place for the benefit of the people; we measure our government by individuals. Somebody will say when I was in government, I did this, when I was in government, I did that. It is because we don't have a system; we only have personalities who have changed themselves from the system that Nigeria should have, and that is why some people will say if Obasanjo should leave, who will he hand over to? We should not annoy God! We should not let God to be angry at Nigeria. You see in the country of over 145 million people, let him choose one of his ministers, let him pick Ribadu, let him pick any of the women, let him sponsor them. Has he been doing all the work alone? So to rush the constitution at this point in time is unfair to the constitution, it is unfair to the system, it is unfair to the people. The Constitution is not something you can rush to amend for a purpose that is anti-constitution and anti-people and against the interest of the nation.

Don't you think the zonal method adopted to amend the constitution will help?
Who formulated the zonal method? Was it not the Mantu group? Everybody in this country knows where Mantu belongs. He is close to Mr President. In fact with all due respect to Senator Mantu, I don't know whether he has had any training in constitutional making, in constitutional law and law itself. I am not aware of that. I don't know his pedigree in that area, but I know that he is a politician and I also know that he is a senator, who just woke up overnight and said there would be personal meetings to discuss a very serious and fundamental issue of constitutional amendment. Who are the people they took there? Like the South-West zone, who are the people who took over? A governor was on stage with drum dancing. The governor of Ekiti State, where I came from, was there dancing. Is that the way of amending constitution? He came with his troops and they were dancing round the place, saying Obasanjo carry go'. Is that the way to amend the constitution? Is that the way to shape the present and the future? Is that the way to do justice to the injustice contained in the constitution? What did they attain? It was all a parade. It was just the assembly of politicians particularly that of Osogbo. And then they now went ahead to be arresting those people who said no', we don't want it done this way. I doubt if those people have been released now. Is that fair? Is that the way we should behave during democratic system or under a democratic government? I am from Ekiti, I am a Senior Advocate of Nigeria. Fayose is close to me, he knows me, he has my number, and he has never contacted me to say what will you say about this constitution amendment. I know Chief Afe Babalola is there in our state, and I doubt if the governor ever contacted him. I can mention all other Senior Advocates from there. I am a stakeholder in the constitution amendment, and by the virtue of my position, I am an expert. So, who are the people who mandated them to go and dance round the place and be saying they want the constitution amended?
I will say with all respect that the entire place was a charade, and why zonal? You had what we call your own conference. Why do our leaders think that our memories are so short that we had forgotten what they said yesterday? The zonal meeting now has taken over from the conference meeting; it has overshadowed whatever that was recommended.
We want to talk of the judiciary and we want to talk of rule of law. Democracy must be anchored on the rule of law. But then some went to Osogbo, and what they did was to drum, dance, and show-off. And that's the way you amend constitution and you want us trained in law, trained as lawyers in the act of constitutional making, who have handled several fundamental and monumental constitutional cases, and then you want us now to be clapping for you?

There are more than 130 sections being proposed for amendment, what would you say on this?
I've said it and I don't want to repeat myself. This is not the best time to do it, when you know that elections are knocking on the door. You are talking about 150 sections. We don't need a book; the Holy Bible or the Holy Quran as our constitution. We'll sit down, we'll think of our history, we'll juxtapose the history with what is happening now and make a constitution for ourselves and I think we should appeal to this government that is about going that it should be preparing a short handover note not only at the federal level but also at the state level for those governors who have spent two terms. And I want to say Nigeria is also blessed. God still loves this country and that is why we still have some governors who are able to say that this will not be fair; we have some of them who did that.

Let's talk about immunity clause in the constitution and the possible way to curb the governors who use this as a cover to perpetrate criminal acts.
My own contribution to this immunity clause is that let us qualify the immunity section of the constitution and restrict it in such a way that makes it subject to the constitution, that it will not include corruption, with people dipping their hands into the national treasury, into the state treasury, to take out everything that is there for their own personal aggrandisement. But honestly speaking, anybody in government can use constitutional cover by way of litigations, whether civil or criminal, we cannot remove it completely, we cannot remove immunity clause completely; we can make immunity clause subject to some conditions and conditionalities and subject to the constitution itself. But in a way, have you forgotten that in what we are doing now, we contradict ourselves? We want to remove immunity clause at the same time you want people to be in power in perpetuity. What is the difference between six and half a dozen? Let us solve the problem ourselves. This fault is not in our past but in us at present. This fault is in the people who are operating the system right from the federal to the state to the local governments.
Let us go back to the zonal arrangement. Now, look at the money that was spent. It came from Ekiti. Those who went from Ondo, where did they get the money? Was it not from the state treasury? Is that not corruption in itself? Is that within the spirit of the constitution? What has that got to do with the immunity clause? So I want this country to be debating and I want to advise in my own humble way now that let us be debating real and large issues. People steal not because of the immunity but because the system permits them to steal. The system in this country encourages an enduring corruption and that is why people like us are saying that lock this system that permits corruption; let us change it altogether.
Britain does not have a written constitution and that unwritten constitution of Britain has not been toyed with for centuries. We are talking of several centuries and it is enduring and everybody knows it in his heart what the constitution of Britain is. Nobody will change it, nobody will tamper with it, and nobody will mess it up; yet it is unwritten constitution, because that is their system. That unwritten constitution is based on a system that permits that whether it is Labour Party, whether it is Conservative Party, whether it is Liberal Democrat that is in power, these are the things that they must do, basic things that government must do to make government responsible to the people. We don't have that in Nigeria. When a governor digs a borehole through the state funds, he goes out there to commission it. Then the Oba will read an address, then everybody will start prostrating for that governor that he has done well. When a road passes through your town, and it's a government road, you take advertisements, praising Mr. President as if he is spending his own money. Is he not spending our money? They will now be saying, I did this I did that. What type of rubbish is that? So, we must have a system, and the constitution can only endure when there is a system. There is a system in the U.S, that is why every president, whatever might be the level of his achievements, even if the heavens are chorusing and clapping that this person has done well, that he must be there, he knows he can't be there for more than eight years. Nobody will ever suggest an extra day, it is the system in the U. S that will ensure that election will be held at so, so month, it is the system that gives independence to the electoral umpire. Nigeria's INEC is not independent, and Nigerian police is not independent; the Federal Government uses the police for whatever it chooses to do with them. Which system is independent? We're talking of the over-concentration of power in the centre and in the hands of one man that is saying power for us, absolute power for us. Nobody is thinking about that and you said you are having zonal meetings!
So people like us will want to make input on how our country is governed.

What would you say about the anti-corruption crusade of President Obasanjo and EFCC activities?
Well I remember Chief Rotimi Williams called me on phone when I was supporting the anti-corruption bill of 2002, which talked about the ICPC. By that time, I think the Ondo State challenged the Act, and I said it only for the purpose of me being there that a certain group wanted to drive fear into the hearts of some people. Williams was a very experienced lawyer, he asked me some pertinent questions, among which is, Mr. President of the NBA, don't you think that this thing can be used in the future to witch hunt the supposed opponents by whoever that is in power at the centre? He said, do not let us restrict it to Obasanjo your president now. I said I, as the president of the NBA and the concerned member of the NBA, would support anything that will minimise the act of corruption.
I presented a paper at the last Commonwealth Lawyers Conference meeting in London and I said we should tell the truth that of all Nigerian leaders past and living, Obasanjo appears to be the most vocal in his word against corruption. Let us give that to him, but it's a different thing if his seriousness and preachment have changed the system. I dare say that I don't see much difference between what we have now and what we had under Abacha. I will say that the system appears to be more corrupt with due respect. The corruption we have now is monumental and I doubt whether it has precedents. Again, it is a system that promotes corruption. You said you want to change the system, but that system permits you when you find your way to the government house to start building houses, buy series of cars, your family members become millionaires overnight and nobody ask questions. There are no opponents in the government of Nigeria, everything is done in secrecy, and a lot of people do not know what Nigeria makes, and the system permits you to start sharing weekly or monthly oil blocs to people for political consideration is a system that encourages and breeds corruption. At the state level, the governors can spend whatever he wants and nobody asks questions.
Take the police for example. Is it fair for a police constable to be earning N8, 000 as salary in a month and a sergeant getting N13,000 in a month and for an inspector to be on a salary below N20,000? I took this up with Mr. President as president of the NBA. I told him that from our own research as an organization, we found out that the police constable buys his uniforms, he buys his torchlight, he buys his shoes, he buys his cap and you expect that policeman not to be corrupt. How does he cope, how does he feed his family? N8,000 to a constable the he stays on the road not sitting down! It is a wicked system, and it encourages corruption. When you talk of corruption, we should stop defining corruption as per the splitting of what will satisfy our leaders; corruption is limitless. There are a lot of things that would amount to corruption. There was an interview President Obasanjo granted The Punch shortly after he assumed office. In the interview, he gave several degrees of corruption and I agreed with him. He said using your position in a way and manner that is not in the interest of the people is corruption, rigging an election is a bigger corruption. For goodness sake, a ballot box that is supposed to be very secret, we have *******ised it. If we had made a harlot out of the ballot box, then what type of corruption is worse than that? We appear to be restricting corruption to taking of bribes. Is it not corruption for you to change the constitution in order to achieve a purpose? Is it not corruption to manipulate the constitution of the country?
Let us examine corruption in all its ratifications and let us now stop describing corruption as money taken and money given; it is more grievous and more encompassing than that.

What is your assessment of President Olusegun Obasanjo's economic policy?
I am not an economist, I am a lawyer, but then I am a human being. I believe that President Obasanjo has self-control, self-discipline. I give that to him. But, again, I want to use Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo to comment on President Olusegun Obasanjo's economic policy. It was being said that this same Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo advised Babangida not to submit Nigeria and her economy to the whims and caprices of the World Bank or London Club. I have a lot of the papers he delivered and interviews he granted. He was against the structural adjustment policy and programme of Babangida, and he was talking of policies and structural reforms that helped human beings then, but today, here we have the same respected elder statesman being in the shadow and submitting Nigeria completely to the whims and caprices of the international market.
The naira has been decimated. Everybody keeps on abusing Abacha, which I believe also is unfair, because there are some things Abacha did. We knew he pegged the rate of the naira. President Obasanjo's government has said that everybody in Nigeria should find his own level. Whereas it is the human beings that should control the currency, nobody is controlling the rate of the naira now. We know what it was when he came into power. It is falling to an all-time low now and nobody is commenting about it. I will not say anything good in a government that does not better the lives of my people. There is no Federal Government presence in my state there is no Federal Government's presence in my town. I am from Ikere-Ekiti in Ekiti State, and I identified with the problems of my people. Many of the youth don't have jobs, the graduates and school leavers are not enriched because there are no jobs for them. I also know that my people are hungry, the economic reforms do not reach my people. Some people, who are supposed to know this and look for possible ways of improving on the economic situation of the people, are now saying President Obasanjo carry go', and they can't justify it. If am wrong, they should point to what particular thing the President has done for Ekiti people or in any way the federal government has improved on the people's welfare. Before 1999, I have been in this struggle and since 1999 I am still in the struggle. Tell me how can I as a leader of the people in my own right, or how can I as a Senior Advocate of Nigeria simply because I stay in Lagos, go to Abuja or that I leave in Ilorin would now say Mr. President carry go' when my people in Ekiti State are suffering, when there is nothing to justify it. Until when my people have benefited from the Federal Government, I would not give credit to the government that does not improve the welfare of my people.