In a recent tread I started asking why we bash Condi Rice, one gent posted a link indicating that Condi was a race traitor of the highest order and that one of the reasons for this is that she was more against Affirmative Actions than Bush is.

At this point, I must admit, that by that standard, I might be a race traitor of the highest order myself. I support Equal rights and Equal opportunity 100%. I am torn on Affirmative Actions.

I don't see how we can expect equality and affirmative actions at the same time. They seem to be mutually incompatible terms. To me, Affirmative actions says "I cannot qualify for the standards required of everyone else or compete with my white counterparts on a straight forward...this is the qualifications...basis, I need you to lower the standards so that I can get in" To me, Equal Opportunity says "If I am just as good or better than that white competitor, I expect to get in" I personally see Affirmative Actions as an admission of inferiority. I have competed head to head against a lot of white contemporaries. I have seen nothing that would make me think Affirmative Actions is required for me to be among them. Equal Opportunity requirements may be needed to ensure I get what I earn, but NEVER Affirmative Actions.

If me having the pride anddignity to say, "I don't want Affirmative Actions to compete with whites for employment and school admission" make me a race traitor...then, I confess. I am a race traitor of the highest order. I demand Equal Rights. I reject Affirmative Actions.

All of this being said, I am not in favor of eliminating Affirmative Actions immediately. I think AA in government jobs and for government contractors shouldbe mandated. I think in many industries that have not proven to offer fair employment practices or schools that have not proven to offer fair admissions practices should continue to have AA mandates until they have a proven track record of fair practices. But, I think we should look forward to a day where the AA cloud does not hang over us where our compentencies are not always in question.

Glory: I can't speak about the American model of Affrimative Action, because i don't live there.. However i can say without fear of contradiction that Affrirmative policy already exists for European on both sides of the pond... So in my view it is not ABOUT giving blacks an unfair advantage nor is it about saying that we are not good enough..that is the conservative spin, on AA policy, for me it is about equalising the unfair conditions that we know already exist across the board..

Allow me to give some key examples of how i experience these existing White Afirmative action programmes in action....

I recently went for a job where I know that the job description was altered/tailored towards a particular candidate that the employers wanted in the job... When I applied they even called me at home to subtly put pressure on me not to go for it....Amazingly I never got that job I wonder why...I was told i did a good interview but the other person was 'better'.. that may or may not have been true..however..

When I applied for the same job, 3 (three) months later they changed the job spec again making it harder and slanting it again towards another favoured candidate... I also know that the other candidate was coached for the interview.. so guess what happen then...?

I applied for a similar job in another organisation I was called for an interview at very short notice, then i had to wait 1 month for response, curious as to why it was taking so long... I was then told when i called, that they were interviewing other candidate literally a month after i had been interviewed (i have no proof but i suspect the candidate was internal)..now by any standards that gives the candidate interviewed 4 weeks later an unfair advantage in terms of preparations, being tipped off and being coaching.. So you will note i was not surprised to learn that although I gave a superb interview they found someone 'better'...but I was so wonderful they will keep my name on their books just in case..(yea right!!)

But my final example is my favorite, although I suspected this at the time, i had to have this confirmed on the down low...by a interview panel member (black) after the fact..

I went for a job where it was alleged that once a white panel member saw my name on the application form, sheliterally threw my pack away without reading it.. The black panel member appaulled by this action demanded that she follow proper protacol and vet my application.. I passed for an interview, although I was the only of four candidates to turn up, and i passed the interview.. This woman in an organisation i used to work for, then point blank refused to employ me.. her exact words if i recall were 'i'm not having him on my f**king team' I was taken on in another team, whereI did extremely well.. so well in fact that before i left that organisation, i was requested to WORK on that woman's team and my own team simultatously..

So here's my point Glory I am not a whinging Black, nor do i have the victim mentality far from it.... I'm clear that if given a level playing field i'd wipe the floor with anyone...However that is not what i have experienced and not what the vast amount of Blacks in the UK experience...what we experience is the default conditions of White affirmative action, and we are expected to overcome these with both arms tied behind our backs, blindfolded and ignorant of the conditions too...

So yes in answer to your question if you believe as Condi does, then you are a Sell out of the highest order....Most sane people black or white KNOW that equality does not exist except in the minds of a fantasis...

Lets face it, if you're white and male then you've got it made.

If you're black/female then yes you need measures to equalise historically prejudicial employment practices and also equalise pay.

If you still fail to understand that then you're beyond help. Simple as that.

id say black females are wayy more excepted than black males...its black males that need the measures to bring things up to par.

Black_Power wrote: clp)

1) I didn't ask you a question as to rather I was a race traitor. I made a statement that "If" X is the gold standard for what a race traitor is, then I am infact a race traitor. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I don't need confirmation from any second party as to who I am.

2) I loved your examples. I thought you were going to prove me wrong, but you inadvertantly proved me right. I thought you were going to tell me that you were finally hired because some company had to fill some Affirmative Action qouta, then after being hired you so impressed them that they realized you deserved the spot without Affirmative Actions. But, what you told me instead was that it was your persistence and professionalism that finally got you a job with someone who was willing to give you a fair chance based on your resume and your interview skills. It is certain that your quality of life on the job was much better being hired into a position where you wereWANTED based on your credentials and skills rather than going into a hostile situation where they were forced to accept you to meet some government mandated quota.

I understand that my career field offers a different environment than most and therefore I cannot use my own experiences to develop my opinion. In my career field, there is a shortage of qualified people. Additionally, qualifications and competence is cut and dry...your credentials speak for themselves. When I recently decided to consider accepting an offer to work for a competing company, it sparked a bidding war between the two companies to keep/gain me. If there were 20 qualified black men/women that came to my employer today seeking employment, they would all have Job offers.....but, they would almost certainly have offers from competing companies as well.

As far as job descriptions being altered for some particular candidate, I have seen this happen MANY MANY times. Prior to retiring from the military, I served in an organization were I was one of only 2 blacks. I was not the victim of these incidents, but was sometimes direct witness to them. The Good ole' boy network was alive and well. Obviously, the victim in these incidents were white, as were the offenders. Having worked a great deal of my career both military and civilian around majority white co-workers, I have had opportunity to see many whites in supporting positions that are not in shortages and in high demand, who experience the same types of things you describe. They obviously don't know why they didn't get the position or offer. They then start formulating reasons in their mind. Some let these reason block them from progressing. Some, do as you did, sidestep them and move on to the next opportunity.

So, the examples you provided does not demonstrate a need for AA, it demonstrates a need forYOUR level of professionalism, skills, and persistance.

I also strongly support black entrepreneurial efforts over Affirmative Actions. I just think blacks are better than that.

In the U.S., I do not agree with Affirmative Action either, because it only breeds resentment. However, that is only because I feel that we are due reparations (our own land to develop). The Black man can never live equally with the White man, and the Whites have proven such through their utter destruction of our civilizations for the last 6,000 years in Asia, Africa and the Americas. Any public policy whether you call it Affirmative Action, Equal Opportunity Employment, or whatever will always disenfranchise African people as long as we remain under the jurisdiction of White people.

One may say, "well, that is all well and good for you Americans, but what aboutus in the UK?..we didn't go have the same recent history as you." This is why I focus on reparations instead of short term fixes which are merely a bandage on a broken leg. If reparations were given, we wouldn't haveourbrothers and sisters from the Carribean and theContinent going to White countries in pursuit of more fulfilling lives.

Black_Power wrote: Your statement, Black_Power, is an admission (Right or wrong) that black males are underperformers. I agree that many are, but Iknowit is not an issue of inferiority, but of failed potential. I have had opportunity to see many black males perform at their potential and believe me, they are at the top of their game. I don't mean sports, I meanprofessionals. Every year, I fly over to Tuskeegee, Alabamafor theAnnual Memorial Day fly-in and observe/visitwithhundreds of black civilian and military pilots. I have had opportunityin past visits to talk directly with some of the original Tuskeegee Airmen and with now deseased Chief Anderson, the black civilian who trained many of the Tuskeegee Airmen. When Chief Anderson was laughed at when he tried to get white flight instructors to give him lessons, he saved money, purchased his own used airplane for $2500 and taught himself how to fly by watching the whites from a distance. He went on to get his licenses and on farther to get his instructors license. He later flew the Presidents wife upon her request, which set the stage for the Tuskeegee Airmen reaching their goals.

We need more black men with this attitude rather than men with the excuse or victim mentality. These brave men blazed the trails for us and many of our black men of todayhave dropped the ball and have fallen far short of following in their footsteps. We endureobstacles nothing like those faced by ourfathers. If we submitted our sorry excuses to men like ChiefAnderson he would laugh in our face. So, whilebrothers with the excuse mentality sit back in the cut telling me why they can't do X or Y, I will be over here enjoying the benefits of having done X and Y. I appreciate the work of our forefathers and will not let them down by dropping the torch. They went tofar and endured too much for me to make excuses why I can't continue to climb.

Shemsi en Tehuti wrote: Positive blacks who would do well under reparations are doing well now. Most blacks who are irresponsible now,if given money or land would only squander it on rims that spin and things that shine.

We blame the whites for destroying our lands, do we not understand that we allowed them to do so and farthermore assisted in the process? A couple of white boys didn't row up in a boat and take slaves....black people sold their own and their enemies. They didn't come in and forcefully take our resources, we sold it to them for nothing. We have to take responsibility for our failure instead of blaming everything on "Da man".

We have land we can develop right now. Take your pick of African countries and go there. There are many examples of our greed, and corruption and the conseqences for it. We cannot blame all of this on whites. The continent of Africa has been one of the most naturally resourceful places on earth, yet we have and continue to squander it. The amazing thing is that we take none of the responsibility for it and blame it all on whitey. It is like an alcoholic trying to solve his drinking problem while blaming his drinking on his mother.

So, we don't need to focus on reparations, but on responsible living that does not involve self-destructive behavior.

Glory2God wrote:
blksnore...there's far too much ignorance in this post for me to know where tobegin with this one...