http://society.guardian.co.uk/commun...069623,00.html

interesting thoughts that raises many questions what do you think?

I agree with him on everything else apart from this emphasis on what it means to be British. Somebody gave me something to read from him a year ago about life in West London estates whch can be applied in most places in London and made alot of sense. Those dynamics werre there when I was growing up 15-20 years ago. He also said that when he joined the army cadets he learned this Britishness which set him apart from most of his peers.

I dont know what it is about the British army that ****s with a black mans mind like this. But its powerful stuff. Indigenous British people cant even define what Britishness is let alone anyone else. The only thing I remember about Britishness when growing up is being called a Black******* in certain areas and having to be on guard. The inherent British superiority complex. And the fact a good proportion of them had the hygienge habits of a stray dog. Is he really saying that there is nothing of value within thees kids own culture which they can benefit from.

I like what he says but when he starts talking about British values then my mind closes down and thinks what crap is he on about.

Bredder Tukoma wrote: My thoughts exactly.

What's the betting that he's married to a grey?

Bredder Tukoma wrote: It sharpens ones mind.

What he says about Britishness in the Military is interesting. As apart from conservative with a small c. It's simply a machine, neutral one at that. After all it was the Military that brought in a Labour Government in 1945.

However:

Army Cadet Force.

"I had role models who were men and who were not of the street,"

Therein, lies the great divide. Sort of like The B.A or the SWP?

On to politics. As a youth of the 80's, I find it hard to reconcile what the Conservatives did to the Country during that time. Ironically the we in the Military helped them to stay in, by default due to the Falkland Islands.

The Thatcher years of monetarist economic dictatorship, ala Hayek, ripped through the conservative streak of our parents. Deep down most Africans, and older Jamaicans are conversative with a small c. But the Britain that they entered into smacked that conservativeness out of them. In deed Thatcher created such a divide, many of us found ourselves in Left wing ghettos in the false belief that they were allies of us.

In the days of "Rock against Racism" which I was well involved in it was just a politicalisation of the Football hooliganism with the National Front on one side and Punk and Reggae on the otherniceone.gif.

In todays politic's it less about idealogy and more about Marketing and media presentation. M.P' earning all their income from their salary rather than from Union funds or Directors salary. A greater corruption.

As for labour, if Thatcher was an Expolusion in the politcal scene Blair has over seen erosion of it.

In respect to Britishness. I prefer Englishness. Its the language that I speak, the Culture I grow up in. And the passport that I have chosen to hold.

However, that does'nt affect my Heritage, and cultural inheritance or destiny even which is 100% African.


Inessence, Shaun Bailey hasas much a memory of the Thatcher years than Ihad of rationing. Timeand tide waits for no man.


Being a rebel is oh so yesterday.

Can the same be said of being anti- conservative ? That is the question.

........i remember hearing from this guy waxing lyrical about the so called problem of

'black' knife culture on various news programmes a few months ago, little did i know then it was part of his plan to get good PR, and to gain prominence for an election platform...saying that i stillthink many tories are out and out rascists, elitists, bigots and hyporcrites.

but paradoxically, many traditional 'west indian ' values, mirror those of traditionaltory values,( i suddenly feel dirty). the paradox is that the conservative young blood decades ago called for nelson mandela to be hanged, said of the brixton rioters; if they didn't like it here they should go home. many of the young blood are now prominent officials in todays tory party.

many front bench tories are fellow etonians from david camerons old school. patronage, favouritism and corruption are still rife. they have not changed.The only reason this current minority has been added to the toryroster is to seem more representative...

this is the same trick the republicans have played in the states. sure they'll have a splattering of 'coloureds'( many tories still use that phrase)for local elections in 'coloured' areas, but when it comes to camerons cabinet , white is the only thing you'll see.

i will never, never, never, never, never, NEVERRRRRR!!!! VOTE FOR TORIES ....this guy IS A FOOL... this guy is boiling the myriad problems of afro-carribs on a lack of effort? what a fool....

.....this guy is being hired because 'this black man' is a sort of symbol for urban stryfe ? is that how tories see this typical black men ?

If the Tories only rely on their traditional core vote, they can kiss goodbye to Government for a long time, given how Britain has changed. Therefore they need to appeal to people who they've spent a long time telling 'you're not one of us'. Not easy.

There is a kind of 'Conservatism' that appeals to the conservative-minded in the African-Caribbean community, and Shaun Bailey is the personification of that. For a fair number of the older generation (including me), the memories of Powell, Thatcher and their ilk run too deep and can't be put aside....for the younger folks.....don't see why Labour should presume an automatic right to 'the black vote', so no reason why the Tories shouldn't go for it.....

As for Shaun himself, I read 'No mans land'.....liked some bits more than others....image wise he's learning how to make things work for him......I say good luck. Too early to say how many will follow him....think people will want to see how he fares first.

But a black Tory? Why not - and certainly more palatable than some of the other they've dug up (Derek Laud? John Taylor?)....

Dada wrote:
I beg to differ. The british army like most government institutions incl. the police are not neutral. As regards whether they are on the left or right of social policy maybe..but the army will promote patroism and the British way of doing things. Hence the attitudes of many army men are in sync with nationalistic racist thinking. Thats why many of them will think of other people in derogatory terms as they have always done and as all British institutions do.

So when Shawn Bailey speaks of British culture as something youths need/ the fact that his own mother limited his contact with fellow blacks/ andthe implication that these values can only be sourced from Britishness/ Englishness and not from their parent culture is no surprsie. One does not have to enter the army to receive disipline/ no more than to have a positive outlook on life/ a person does not have to be immersed in Britishness.

His experince in the cadets has obviously inculcated a sense of reverance for British culture/ he says so explicity himself. I can only assume he was no exposed to the work and long heldself improvementethic of African Carribean culture/ or that it is inferior to what he terms British values which he wishes more youths to be exposed to. His experinece has obviously ****ed with his mind and turned him into a closet anglophile. Which in my experinece black people who join the armed forces or the police tend to have a pre-disposition to in the first place. This is not conjecture. This is a well known fact which many black people can testify to.

A standard White Supremacist Racist tactic of placeing atoken person classified as Black who they willuse to implement unpleasant Racist policies. They will do anything to keep faith in the system of Institutionalised Racism which is White Supremacy.

....i'm only in my 20's and i still would never consider voting for the tories, regardless of the number of blacks in the party...