Africans banned fron Bars in China - Page 2

Vubundada_Kandaba · (#26 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynGal

But that's the problem, isn't it? That even when Africans don't extend this niceness to foreigners, they are largely incapable of extending it to the other tribe. A fact proven time and again, by history.

Could you please give an answer to this? I can never seem to get a straight non-defensive answer from my African friends and I guess I'll ask you since I don't know you and we're anonymous, on the web, have nothing to lose, etc:

Do you think that Africa's major problem is the fact that many Africans can't get past internecine tribal hatred?

Brooklyn Gal,

I think you are missing an essential part about the Violence in Africa. The Tribal Violence in Africa is usually between Tribes that are Neighbors and in many cases actually related to one another by blood and by viritue of marriage and in most cases speak a similar language as one another. It is like two brothers in a family fighting. You see the problems start over tribes that are neighbors competing against each other for Access to Water, Land Rights, Cattle Rights, grazing land rights and so on. After centuries of living close to each other and often competing for these resources, eventually the competition leads to Tribal Wars. Africans don't leave their land or Country to attack other Africans far away from them, but if they fight, mostly it is between Tribes that are neighbors. It is this fact that you are missing. In the past, some of these tribes were exploited because when the Colonizers came, some tribes initially did not see them as oppressors, rather they asked for assitance from the colonizers to beat back their traditional enemies which were their neighbors and blood kin.

The problem of tribalism and warring with neighboring tribes is similar to the problems with Modern Nations today. Go to the Website of the Internation Court and you will realize that their is disagreements between America and Mexico over land, a low level brewing conflict between America and Canada over access to the North Poles, problems between Brazil and Argentina over land, between Uruguay and Paraguay over land, between Peru and Ecuador over land, between Guyana and Venezuela over land, between Haiti and Dominican Republic, between Nigeria and Cameroon, between Senegal and Gambia, between Mali and Niger, between Sudan and Egypt, between Sudan and Kenya and Uganda, between Ethiopia and Eritrea, between India and Pakistan and China, between China and Russia and I can go on and on until tomorrow morning. Virtually/almost all Countries in the World have a low level conflict between them and their neighbors. Sometimes this problems get out of hand and explode into and all out war. This is how tribal wars are almost like in Africa, between Neighboring tribes over where their lands end and where the next man lands starts and over resources that are found in border areas. One tribe may not like their neighboring tribe because of competition to resources, but that does not mean t they do not like all Africans. Most likely they will be more receptive to other Africans or tribes far off away from other places then their immediate neighbors. Thus you folks in America think that Africans are not generous towards other African, but only towards Foreigners. It is like the blood and crips in the hood fighting each other for turf. Most likely these gangs would not leave the hood and go over to suburbia to attack random people, but when they fight it is gangs on gangs and most of the time these gangs actually do know each other and opposing gang members are sometimes blood related fighting a stupid war over turf because each is laying a claim to the turf.

Now as to your other sayings about how other people talk about African Americans and pretentious, I think you got the wrong impression of me here and are putting the cart before the horse. And when I said Americans don't read, I was not talking of African Americans but Americans in general and not targetting Blacks or anything like that. I was talking more about the lack of Interest in the News and internation events that one sees almost everywhere. No one said anything that you should not speak about Africa, All I said is that you got the wrong image about what I was saying with regards to our culture of inclusion and welcoming everyone and to check the works of Chancellor Williams who is African American. As for you other talk, only you may have other intentions or meaning, that I don't know. And yes we are generous and this generosity can be taken advantage of.

As to the problem of Tribalism, It is one of the problems but not the main problem. As I stated above, Tribal wars are usually between Neighboring Tribes who in many cases are blood kin and related and competing over Resources. The tribalism issue is actually the easiest problem to solve of all our problems. If their is equal representation in Government then that problem is eradicated. Our problem is that of Corruption, Mismanagement, Bad Governance an d Leaders with no vision for the future. Once you fixed these problems then you fix 90% of our problems. Tribalism is a small part that can appear bigger than most problems we have or if allowed to get out of hand. In Botswana, they have instituted a policy of combining Democracy with Traditional African Forms of Government and the end result was a winning combination that made Botswana the Richest, well Developed, and one of the top least Corrupt nations on earth with a one of the highest GDP in Africa. In Bostwana they have what they call the House of Chiefs in Parliament where all the Chiefs of each tribe is represented equally regardless of how big or small the tribe is. If there is mis-undestandings between neighboring tribes, the problem is brougth before the House of chiefs and debated by all the chiefs and solved peacefully.

BrooklynGal · (#27 (**permalink**))

@ Vubundada_Kandaba,

Thank you for your analysis.

I am assuming that when you write about tribal 'warfare' over water rights, land rights etc, you're talking about the 'rural' African?

So what about the westernized, educated city-living Africans? Why do they hate each other so passionately? Case in point: my Nigerian sisterfriend who's Igbo and can't stand Yorubas? I just don't get it. And I find this with many, many Africans. My ex-Boyfriend is Xhosa and he swore up and down about Zulus and Shangaans. And I saw the horrible Black on Black xenophobia in South Africa (and other parts of Africa) and was so ashamed of those Black people there. In fact, just a couple of weeks ago, South Africa was aflame with the indigenous populace cutting down Zimbabweans, Mozambicans etc. And Kenya earlier this year... Or Rwanda. That certainly wasn't about land rights was it?

Or the Jamaican/Nigerian hatred in the UK?

I'm talking about that kind of hatred - from educated, 'aware', Black folks who have access to truth but still hate each other passionately...

And on another note:

Funny that despite it's political gains, the Botswana government has and is trying to forefully evict the San from their ancestral land. Why go after Black people like that? And why is the HIV rate so high in a country that 'advanced'?

I'm just rambling but thanks again.

adrianerik · (#28 (**permalink**))

Classism
Racism
Ethno-centricism(Tribalism)
Sexism
Petite Nationalism
And a 'tetch' of ig'nance-"ism"

Actually, ig'nance is the yeast.

Mix in the first five in any combinations you choose. Just one is toxic. Together, they are catastrophic. Add just a dash of yeast and you will get all of the situations you described. Every single one.

We all suffer from it. The difference is the proportions.

Vubundada_Kandaba · (#29 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynGal

@ Vubundada_Kandaba,

So what about the westernized, educated city-living Africans? Why do they hate each other so passionately? Case in point: my Nigerian sisterfriend who's Igbo and can't stand Yorubas? I just don't get it. And I find this with many, many Africans. My ex-Boyfriend is Xhosa and he swore up and down about Zulus and Shangaans. And I saw the horrible Black on Black xenophobia in South Africa (and other parts of Africa) and was so ashamed of those Black people there.
Or the Jamaican/Nigerian hatred in the UK? I'm talking about that kind of hatred - from educated, 'aware', Black folks who have access to truth but still hate each other passionately...

Funny that despite it's political gains, the Botswana government has and is trying to forefully evict the San from their ancestral land. Why go after Black people like that? And why is the HIV rate so high in a country that 'advanced'?

BrooklynGal,

Again you seem to be mixing several things and putting the cart before the horse and I am not making excuses here. South Africans in general are a special case, so you can't link the Xenophobia in South Africa to Tribalism or anything remotely close to that, you can't do that. What you have are poor South Africans many of whom pysche wise are still influenced by Aparthied. I think you lived in South Africa but yet you did not understand the damage Apartheid has on the Populace which is similar to the damage of slavery in a way especially for Blacks living in Urban South Africa. Apartheid influenced the youth into gangs and crimes and as a result you see the violence and the murder rate, the highest in the World. Apartheid destroyed the family structures in many communities producing frustrated Men who make babies without taking responsibility. Almost the same social problems African Americans face is what I see in many Black South Africans and I am surprised that you lived there and never really understood that. Now you got poor South Africans in shanti Towns who the Government failed them economically; all of sudden finding themselves competing with Africans from Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Uganda and many other places for meagre resources. The result is Xenophobia.

The bickering about Tribalism from your Friends, of which you mention about is what I spoke of earlier, where how all this things came about in the first place, Tribalism that is. The Igbos compete with the Yorubas, the Zulus with the Xhosas. and the competitions from the rural areas move to the cities. I have yet to come across Africans who hate each other so passionately when they live together in the cities or the villages. If what you said about the hatred with passion exhibited by your Nigerian friend is true, don't you think Nigeria would by now have exploded into several pieces? Many Africans are passionate about their tribes, but that does not mean they hate the other tribes to the extent you describe and it is not even near to what you hear with the exception of Rwanda, but that again is a special case with outside interference and I had a thread here that explained how the French helped the Hutu procure machettes and so on, but still that does not exucse it, but that will be discussed under a separate topic. Alot of people want to preserve their Tribes, Languages and Culture from dying out, as a result they would rather their sons and daughters marry within the tribe and would oppose their Children from venturing far. It is preservation not hatred.

Despite the Tribalism, Africans live and work together in Cities, Towns and Villages all across Africa. Most of the times when you see these tribal issues flare up is around election times when Greedy Politicians who know what they are doing exploit this issues for political gains. And Politicians the World over are a unique breed apart from the populace and they will exploit each and every issue just to win. That was what happened in Kenya but Kenyans worked together to solve it and the Country ison the path of prosperity once again. Same mindset is even exhibited here in America when Hillary Clinton tried to exploit the race issue to win, remember her comments about White Working class voting for her. Remember how Harold Ford Jr. lost the senate race in Tennessee when the race issue was played out. Remember John McCain in 2000 embracing the Confederate Flag just to win over Southerners. Politicians my dear a different bread of Human Kind who will exploit anything for power be it Tribalism, Race, Class, Religion and so on.

If what you describe hold water, then how comes Senegalese from all tribes are living peacefully, Gambians, Tanzanians, mozambicans, Zambians and almost all over Africa, if they hated each other with passion, would there be anyone left surviving in Africa? Like I said before, the major source of our problems in Africa is not Tribalism per se, but a variety of many sources. If there is equal distributiin of resuorces tribalism will vanish. The problems are Greed, Corruption, Bad Governance and so on. Again, you missed the new but Botswana was trying to exploit Diamonds in Land the San people occupy and the Government was trying to move them to another piece of land so they can begin mining the Diamonds. The San resisted and sued and the government stopped its efforts. Matter of fact I would liken the problem of the San with what you Folks here in America call Eminent Domain where the Government can move you out of your House if they decide to put a highway through you living room.

BrooklynGal · (#30 (**permalink**))

Again you seem to be mixing several things and putting the cart before the horse and I am not making excuses here.

I never said you were. I just asked some questions.

Please don’t confuse my intellectual curiosity with ignorance or the inability to process, analyze, critique and understand the complexities of life in South Africa (or Africa for that matter). I am a Black woman who lived among Black people in South Africa. Keyword: Black. And to me, wherever I have traveled and lived in the world, in the United States, Africa, Central and South America and in the Caribbean, I have always understand that Black people’s lives are largely governed by similar (if not innate) mores, codes, traditions… So whether or not somebody was raised in Haiti, Memphis, Compton or Abuja, as long as they’re Black, I feel I can tap into the substance of what’s really going down in their neck of the woods, without needing to read a book, listen to a long historical treatise etc. As my Grandma used to say, “Black folks know Black folks”. And that’s what I rely on.

How you arrived at the ‘surprising’ conclusion that I lived there and ‘did not understand the damage Apartheid had on the populace’ is beyond me. For heaven’s sake, I’m African American. Remember Jim Crow? In fact, I’m curious. What about my last entry led you to believe that I failed to understand the complexities of race/culture etc in South Africa? Because, to tell you the truth, I asked you the series of questions basically coz I’m always curious to see how people develop an argument or put a spin on it. How a person writes tells me a lot about them (sometimes it tells me all I feel I need to know). I asked because I wanted to see how YOU would answer the questions. I didn’t ask because I didn’t/don’t understand what’s up in SA. But I guess I should have said all this in a preamble before asking the questions.

As an aside,

The nicest thing about living in South Africa is that I was reminded so much of the Black experience here in America. The dynamism and originality of many South Africans was comforting, even with all the other madness going around. Everything there that falls into what one would consider to be ‘expressive culture’ (e.g. literature, music, dance, etc.) comes out of their living experience today – much like it does with the Black Community here. Black South Africans (unlike many Africans I have met) weren’t a bad caricature of BET stereotypes. They weren’t a ridiculous copy of ‘Black America’. They had a living, dynamic, breathing culture that was all about South Africa. A lot of them may have been ignorant about the outside world (just as many of us are here), but they sure were original, as we are here.

Maybe that’s why I was so comfortable there, unlike in the other parts of Africa I travelled to, parts in which I got fed up real quick with the unoriginality of many of the ‘city’ and ‘rural’ Africans who were more likely to greet one another with a ‘wassup’ (wearing a G-Unit t-shirt I might add) than they were to greet each other in their tribal languages. And yeah, that may be a result of globalization (at least that’s what they all said), but to me, it was just tired and unoriginal, even though I hadn’t gone to Africa seeking a warped and stereotypical ‘Africa’. And then again, it just confirmed to me how much, how very much, the African American experience and expression runs the show the world over. But that’s another story…

Apartheid influenced the youth into gangs and crimes and as a result you see the violence and the murder rate, the highest in the World.

How?

Apartheid destroyed the family structures in many communities producing frustrated Men who make babies without taking responsibility. Almost the same social problems African Americans face is what I see in many Black South Africans and I am surprised that you lived there and never really understood that.

You don’t know what I understand or don’t understand.

Now you got poor South Africans in shanti Towns who the Government failed them economically;

What government failed them? The white gov’t or the ANC gov’t? And what do you mean by ‘failed’? Because we can both do a search and pull up economic, educational, health etc. post-Independence statistics and compare what the ANC and white gov’ts have done for poor Black South African folk.

I have yet to come across Africans who hate each other so passionately when they live together in the cities or the villages.

Well, just the other day a bunch of them killed one other in Kenya, more are doing so in Darfur, and another lot of them just did so in South Africa. And I know there’s always ‘political’, ‘historical’ or ‘sociological’ reasons behind the slayings, and somebody’s probably written three books on the genesis of the madness... But in reality, it’s just a bunch of Black folks killing Black folks. All the excuses – and that’s what they are – are a cop-out. People have a choice. That’s what makes us human. You can choose to kill or not kill, especially over some sh*t like tribe, or set or whatever; water and land rights be damned.

If what you said about the hatred with passion exhibited by your Nigerian friend is true, don't you think Nigeria would by now have exploded into several pieces?

Actually, I was talking about individuals. But now that you mention Nigeria ‘exploding into pieces’, if I remember correctly, immediately after the attempted coup by Nzeogwu, many Igbos living in northern Nigeria were slaughtered in the aftermath of the failed coup. They weren’t participants in the rebellion and weren’t military folk; they were regular men, women and children slaughtered because they belonged to the wrong tribe. The reason Nigeria hasn’t ‘exploded’ into pieces and won’t, is because each of the three major tribes has a sufficiently large populace that will defend itself if threatened (like Biafra). They co-exist and go on about their way. Not everybody hates everybody, but a whole lot of folks hate a whole lot of folks. Again, only because of ‘tribe’.

Many Africans are passionate about their tribes, but that does not mean they hate the other tribes to the extent you describe and it is not even near to what you hear with the exception of Rwanda, but that again is a special case with outside interference and I had a thread here that explained how the French helped the Hutu procure machettes and so on, but still that does not exucse it,

But the point is that whoever was selling, the Hutus were buying, with the express purpose of killing Tutsis because they belonged to the 'wrong' tribe.

Alot of people want to preserve their Tribes, Languages and Culture from dying out, as a result they would rather their sons and daughters marry within the tribe and would oppose their Children from venturing far. It is preservation not hatred.

And that’s fine. A lot of Black folks here don’t want their kids marrying non-Blacks. But what has this got to do with any of my questions?

Most of the times when you see these tribal issues flare up is around election times when Greedy Politicians who know what they are doing exploit this issues for political gains. And Politicians the World over are a unique breed apart from the populace and they will exploit each and every issue just to win. That was what happened in Kenya but Kenyans worked together to solve it and the Country ison the path of prosperity once again.

So why not go after the politicians instead of going after the other tribe with a machete? Because that's what happened. Or were the Kenyans who went about killing people zombies or robots? They specifically targeted people based on their tribal origin.

If what you describe hold water, then how comes Senegalese from all tribes are living peacefully, Gambians, Tanzanians, mozambicans, Zambians and almost all over Africa...

Because they got sense?

BrooklynGal · (#31 (**permalink**))

Like I said before, the major source of our problems in Africa is not Tribalism per se, but a variety of many sources. If there is equal distributiin of resuorces tribalism will vanish.

Ain’t it sad that ‘resources’ (read: money, political power, etc) are what it takes for Black folks to live in peace with one another? That without that, they'll hack wone another over some silly mess like 'tribe'?

The problems are Greed, Corruption, Bad Governance and so on.

The problem is self-hate, stupidity, the victim mentality and belief that anyone has control over being born into a ‘tribe’ . The problem is that some Africans, just like some Black people the world over, are just basically evil.

Again, you missed the new but Botswana was trying to exploit Diamonds in Land the San people occupy and the Government was trying to move them to another piece of land so they can begin mining the Diamonds.

Honey I watch the news and knew all this. I didn't 'miss' anything. I don't sit on the couch and get my misinformation from CNN. I read, travel, research, talk to folks and study. In fact, I knew about this issue when it first started simmering years ago, when I was living in RSA.

My point was that it’s just sad that a Black African gov’t would evict Black Africans from their ancestral land and a way of life they’ve been living since time immemorial with the calculated evil of the white colonizers who put them through so much hell in the past. That was my point. I didn’t ‘miss’ anything. I’m up on my 'world news'.

astmartins · (#32 (**permalink**))

The Nigerian Village Square - Nigerians and Their White Counterparts

astmartins · (#33 (**permalink**))

Our problem is that of Corruption, Mismanagement, Bad Governance an d Leaders with no vision for the future. Once you fixed these problems then you fix 90% of our problems. Tribalism is a small part that can appear bigger than most problems we have or if allowed to get out of hand.

Absolutely!!!!...Including Elitism..

astmartins · (#34 (**permalink**))

@BrooklynGal
I wouldn't say hate thats way too strong..we have never systematically killed each other(Igbos-Yorubas) en-masse we leave that to the Hausas(very bloodthirsty and brainless Islamic possesed twits)...I would say distrust because the Yorubas not only unshamedly betrayed the Igbos but were the brains behind the policies to cripple biafra through policies like cutting off food shortages and currency devaluation...
Without this policies the Igbos would have prevailed and been one of the evidently richest places on earth...
My family have some Igbo in us but we are overwhemingly more Yoruba...my sister is married to an Igbo we all get on and of course there are more Igbos in yoruba land than the other way round...
Inter-Marriage is still tricky but thats now old news..things are moving on and multi-culturalism is indeed alive in Nigeria today
But if you talking about hate...Yorubas and Igbos have a common enemy the Hausa who have ruled for most since independence...corrupt...in short their leadership epitomizes everything @VK had mentioned about Africa's failing

BrooklynGal · (#35 (**permalink**))

the Hausas(very bloodthirsty and brainless Islamic possesed twits)...

All of them? Every last one of them?

I appreciate your post but you know, sometimes it's real interesting listening to what Africans have to say regarding tribal issues.

It's like having a conversation and saying "Oh, you know, I love all New Yorkers. We're wonderful people. We kinda may not trust one another too much; sometimes we intermarry... But we don't kill one another en masse. But you know, those people in the Bronx are all murderous, brainless Catholic-possessed twits..."