Is it time that parent like these did jail time too?

Kunjufu · (#1 (**permalink**))

Edlington attacks: two brothers locked up for 'appalling and terrible' crimes - Telegraph

I'm talking about this appalling case, whereby two young boys will now serve a minimum of 5 years in lock up for the torture and attempted murder of two younger children in the North of England.

However like the infamous Bulger case I think an injustice has been done, yes the children who committed these horrific acts needed to be lock up for the public good.. BUT what about the feckless parents who in effect DESIGNED these monsters and then unleashed them upon an unsuspecting public.. Surely they should not only bare some of the responsibility, they should also share the jail time their children will now be doing surely the parents of these two boys ought to be in prison, i don't know how they get off scott free..surely it isn't right!!

Vezz. · (#2 (**permalink**))

You know K, it would be so simple. However, where would we draw the line?

The parents were probably dragged up by THEIR parents, who were most probably dragged up by THEIRS, so there obviously is learned behaviour there. I believe there are other children within the family, which would mean they're put into care if the parents are also jailed. Either way the other kids suffer.

I believe Social Services should take a measure of responsility. I don't think there was enough help given to the family. The boys were moved out of the family home and fostered, which is where the attacks occurred - why weren't they monitored more closely?

Listening to a talk show today, someone made reference to the Bulger killers, stating they had been rehabilitated. How do we know, when we don't even know their names or whereabouts??

Sadly, I think this is just another indication of the complete breakdown of familial responsibility, along with a toothless Social Services department made impotent by this Government's lack of commitment to our young.

Kunjufu · (#3 (**permalink**))

Vezz: Where do we draw the line? An interesting point, my view is that if a parent willfully and negligently subjects their children routinely to images and acts that are in law immoral and deprave, then they should go to jail... What do i call immoral well subjecting children to ****o graphic images clearly meets that criteria, smoking drugs and worse giving drugs and alcohol to minors meets that criteria... For me systemic physical abuse meets that criteria..

Any adult who is complicit in that sort of behaviour on a consistent basis must and should be subject to law if their children as in this case then goes out and revisits that depravity on innocent people..

Whilst I hear you about the responsibility of Social Services, in this..however I respectfully disagree, In my view this EXPECTATION that the state should and must nanny everyone thus absolving parents and families of their responsiblity is for me getting out of hand in the UK.

It should not be up t the state to regulate the behaviour of feckless parents. It is NOT beyond the bounds of basic common sense that you should not allow/subject children the extreme ****ographic images or to hard core drugs or drink if you do then people need to go to JAIL maybe then they will wake up to THEIR responsibility.

Not getting vex with you VEZZ, but I do get Vex with people always looking to put it on society to do what they SHOULD do, Climbe case Parents kicking off, well what in the hell was THEIR responsiblity in handing over a child to someone they barely knew and then NOT checking on THEIR child regularly..

Leaving your child unsupervised on holiday and swan off to have 'dinner' and the child gets abducted, sorry but don't blame anyone but yourself, I'm still amazed these two parents never got done for gross negligence, Im absolutely sure had this been a working class parents they would have loss their children to the courts by now..

In this case these two children are PAYING a HUGE price for their shoddy and feckless parents who can in theory can have MORE children whilst the two boys remain in jail.. That for me cannot be right and simply should not happen!!

My view is that if they started to send a few of these feckless parents to jail, they might think twice about having children and using them as benefits cash cow and then subjecting these Ferrell children on society..

Vezz. · (#4 (**permalink**))

Ah, I think I misinterpretated your original post K.

Everything you say in your last post I agree with. However, with the Doncaster case alone, I'm afraid I have to disagree that SS should not have been more involved.

The mother had seven boys. I'm hard-pressed with 2 lol! SS had 31 chances to intervene. By the time they did and fostered them I think the damage had been done. Sometimes I don't understand the role of SS - there are too many of these cases occurring. With Climbe & Baby P, SS were actively involved, yet the deaths still occurred. Why?

Regarding the Government doing more, they themselves have created the dole culture, so must bear some responsibility for the dreadful case we have here. If the Mum was forced to work, if the father was made more accountable to his sons, I'm not sure this case would occurred. Successive governments have denigrated the role of parents to such an extent, we can't chastise our children
without fear of being jailed! And sadly, children know this and some play on it.

The Doncaster case showed a total breakdown in help for this family. Every player concerned had a part in this sad tale.

Kunjufu · (#5 (**permalink**))

Doncaster faces social work inquiry after child deaths | Society | The Guardian

Quote:

A serious case review into the death of a 10-month-old boy in December 2007 has already revealed a "chaotic and dangerous" situation within the team assigned to his family. In an echo of the case of Baby P (the 17-month-old boy who died in Haringey despite 60 contacts with the authorities), the boy's death followed several referrals to social services which indicated that he and an older sibling were at risk of harm from their 18-year-old mother and 16-year-old father.

Paul Gray, interim director of children's services, who was brought into Doncaster's struggling department last April, said yesterday he had found the department to be overwhelmed with referrals, which came in at a rate of between 600 and 700 a month. He said it suffered from a shortage of qualified social workers. The Ofsted inspectors had criticised the high number of cases not allocated to any social worker.

Vezz: Whilst i do NOT wish to excuse or condone BAD practice, (because i know there are some pratts out there in Child protection)....I'm going to take issue with your last points on a number of levels to enable you and others to perhaps reflect on ripple effect that ACTUALLY caused yet ANOTHER tragedy.

It is just to too easy to BLAMET Social Workers, they are NOT wholly to blame, nor in my opinion is the local authority... It is time imo that the BLAME is apportioned to the RIGHT people...Soooo to start with:

1. YOU (the public) are to blame and people like you who consistently fail to make the connection between having low taxes, frozen councils taxes and the continual under investment of local services... You (by that I mean people in general) cannot have it BOTH ways... the cost of years of successive Governments playing to the crowd and making tax cuts after tax cuts is exactly what we are getting now...that public spending has been squeezed beyond what is sensible or safe...

WE used to have Children's homes and we used to detain children in Bostal if the public needed to be safeguarded from dangerous Chi;dren out of control... That is no longerb the case WHY?

The reason why these children were NOT taken into care is because there is no where to put them,(virtually all children's home were closed down in favour of foster carer which is at best ion short supply. But even if you found somewhere I assure you local authorities are extremely reluctant unless FORCED to at gun point to commission these type of services..Why because of the Government pressure by way of the public to make big spending cut 'savings'?

2. You (the public again) look at the report above which states that Doncaster CANNOT attract SW's, that is not a surprise...that is now a countrywide problem, there is not many people now who will consider never mind enter that profession, why? Well you only have to look at the treatment of Lisa Authorworrey (spelling) was electronically lynched by the media.. That woman was even put on the 'at risk register' as a danger to children. The same register that has pedophiles and abusive parents on it, in words of Sisqo WTF!!...

Not content the public went even harder after the SW's involved with Baby P,and destroyed her too... well i can tell you the upshot of that is anyone who was left in Child Protection, reconsidered their position if they had sense and promptly left... So the question i pose is simply this is Child protection best served by the continual public vilification of SW's?

I have a friend who used to work in YOUR area Vezz, who had t routinely recruit SW's from India, America and South Africa because no body in the UK will do the job, and even those people usually left after a matters of months due to pressure and burn out....its that tough I sh.it you not on that point..

IAlso make this further telling point, that it is a fact that in the Climbe, Baby p, case not a single other proffessional involved lost either their jobs or their status FACT! (ie Police officers, Doctors etc etc)..can that be right?

4. So what you say..SW's should still intervene and do their job's and i totally agree..but then I also point out that, this country chose some years ago, to make it policy NOT to incarcerate any CHILD under the age of 15 years old.. So where to put a child that I believ is dangerous to him/herself... and the public eh?

5. Local politicians/Senior Management of LA's, are also to blame, as much as I can go on about the under funding of services...I can point to the willful and deliberate waste of money in the NHS & LA often obn consultants, who charge stupid money for doing virtually jack sh.it... I can tell you as a fact that one consultant is currently earning £600 per hour, yea you read it right per hour... When i know facts like that and then see people scrambling for money for cases like Baby p, you might get why cases like this makes me vex..

But the issue is who can even blame Consultants from milking the public purse, when this happens from politician at the top downwards.. What gets me is David Cameron and Ed Balls, waxing lyrical about this case...Yet they KNEW about their colleagues effectively committing fraud on a grand scale, money that could have saved Climbe, Baby P, the boys who were tortured.. This is the REAL crime about what they did..they took money that could have saved lives...

But even the Public get in on the act, it would be interesting for you to write to your local council under The Freedom of information Act, and request the amount of money they have paid out on complaints and to avoid being taken to Judicial review, don't be surprise if it runs on hundreds of thousands of pounds..its virtually a national sport..

4. Vezz..lets say that even if everything I said above is immaterial, there is still the point that many people simply forget... Its NOT what you know its what you can PROVE... By that i mean prove in a court of law, the threshold for removing children from parents is quite rightly very high... You cannot jst walk into a court and tell a judge I 'suspect' I 'Think' or I 'heard that' this parent this and that...

You say the SW's could have intervened, I disagree only on the point that it is easy to say that After the fact, or easy to say that when one does not have the responsibility to make that case...

Think for a moment...how could one PROVE neglect, without witnessing it first hand, without a catelogue of incidents, without unrestricted access to the child at all times, without a video camera in the house.

The only way it could occur would be for new legislation Giving Child Protection SW right of access to your home, to give them the right to demand access to your child at will for examination.

People will not stand for it, (remember Cleveland) which is were the hypocrisy comes in... Child Protection Social workers do not have right of entry to anybody's house, and if you want a court order to get entry you need to have EVIDENCE otherwise no magistrate is likely to give you access...

I also make the point that I do not know of any parent just rolling over and accepting Services removing their children, it is a very dangerous business and I kid you not on this... You can be dealing with organised crime syndicates and armed parents, that does not even speak to the legal process, that is long, involved and messy to put it mildly...

I have another friend, not a SW, but who was supporting someone whose child was removed, she got sucked into a holy mess for over 2 (two) years whereby she was stalked, threatened, her children threatened, publically vilified (by name) by the parent on every community radio that would listen, in court time and time again... I challenge anyone to endure that and then tell me its easy or just a matter of just intervening.. My friend when through hell, and she was actually NOT a SW, and was trying to advocate for the parent..

My point here Vezz, (sorry to draw it out) is this... his is not a linear problem, with clear cause and effect, It is easy for people to make throw away remakes, without the full facts... I know for instance that whilst Lisa Authorworrey did make mistakes, but so did those above her, but they got away with murder and I'm talking from the Chief execute downwards... You'll remember him Gurbux Singh the former head of CRE, before he resign in disgrace, If you remember how he got 'sacked' from the CRE it will give you some insight into the quality of leadership that poor Lisa was subjected to at the time..

Its time the RIGHT people were held to account, and about time that everyone took a long cold look at their responsibility o this issue...

For me I want feckless parents to share some of that responsiblity..

Vezz. · (#6 (**permalink**))

No, no, no K, you're missing my point. I will summarise now, and elaborate at another time.

The GOVERNMENT has created this Youth who know their RIGHTS and are not afraid to exploit them.

YOU are blaming US, the taxpayers, for the breakdown in the SS situation, but you fail to acknowledge we have NO CHOICE as to where our taxes go!

The bottom line is, if there was no dole culture, tax credits, housing benefit et al, these situations wouldn't arise.......simple!