K. I know you learnt the hard way and so have many others. Yes you are on the money as an expert in a particular feild. But most young men when they become fathers aint expert in jack right. So how can they be expected to know what we know at this age and stage in our life cycles.

I know too many brothers of reasonable intelligence who thought they chose well including myself to find out things they never knew. I know two brothers close to me where women talked them into having children which they did not want to have because they were young fathers and had to sacrfice everything to raise them to have new women tell them as long as they did not have a child for them the other woman had something over them.

In other words children were born and brought into this world for the security and politics of female power and ego and they are single parents today..Why becauese men are not stone they have feelings and actually love or feel for women and often don't want to lose them or have the same dream but at different time scales and have lived to regret that day...All of us who are black men who genuinely love and feel for deeply will tell of experiences where our loved one have done stuff which has left us speechless...because it is so not what we expected and had a right to expect.

Haven't you heard the killer phrase so many women use...oh things change meaning all that I said no longer holds...

Black men can take the can for many things but not in matters regarding sex...In many cases I know women who already were single parents everyone think they had learnt wisdom etc and then talking and treating the new man same way and story ends up what..

Human beings are what they are...What me and you are grown and careful men but are you saying we have never slept with a woman without a condom without forcing her because she wanted sex more than us..

This type of argument bares no relationship to reality and the lives ordinary or most people live. You don't have children with a woman on the expectation she is a shit woman or potential mother..we come to that conclusion generally later when it far too late. When my wife was pregnant the way she spoke to me on a few occassions I had to hold myself back from knocking her head off and remember it must be a hormones...The type of authority and intolerance shocked..Do that now and don't even care who is there...etc Had to give her some hard serious looks. That was temporary never mind women who then take that attitude on full time once they breed. Men are not mind readers or the predictors of the future. No body knows how a pregnancy will affect a woman and same way with other things.

In fact I am convinced the lack of self worth of so many women is why they abuse their children and the children's fathers because you just have to open your eyes and see the way many women throw their power around where kids are concerned and revel in it.

What is I think true is that a great deal many women who are raised in a dysfunction setting, without the ability to appropriately assert themselves, wrongly use children to either form emotional attachments

This is often true of very young mothers who hae a child to have someone to love and to love them back , such is their craving for unconditional love. it doesn;t occur to them just how difficult it is to raise a child until it is too late.

This is why i plan to be emotionally and mentally strong/healthy before i go about having children. Unfortunatly alot of these women realised the need for this long after they have had their children.

Never mind knowing a partner well before you create a life, one should also know oneself.

It really is unfair to expect a child that is totally dependant on you for everything to fill some kind of emotional void, but young firls lack the emotional maturity to know that.

Fred - in my case it was quite shocking to see the mother scapegoat her children and what she was willing to put them through in her attempt to get even. My children epitomise the expression and my understanding of the meaning of unconditional love, it's an insult to have a babymother expect you to pay for them......as if that's even in question. When you hear a woman say a man does nothing for his kids, what sh is really saying is he does nothing to protect her career or her desired lifestyle.

As I told my ex, I aint bank rolling her lifestyle a raas, if my children are short of anything they can get it when they are with me...and even more worrying is the general mentality of this being the norm. In many cases it's the mother who puts the children last, and many a relationship has gone sour because the father actually put the children before her.

The surname is part of a complete package. When I told one babyfather that part of the reasoning behind my marriqge is so my children can get my surname he's like well he's not married and his children have his surname - shallow as sh!t I tell you and these people are on forums calling theselves African militants - mind you he's married now though...can only put that down to the babymother serving her length of service.....as a babymother.

What I cant understand is the trade business. If the man responce then child gets the surname. If he dont pay then he dont see the child. If we divorce the child name hyphenate. Its selfish business. How can a name depend on a relationship you have with a person/ namely your father. Man some children must have three different surname by the time they are 12. Its pure madness.

Because either the child a fi him father or not. If he's a wotliss somebody then the child have a wotless father. Somebody somewhere made a wotless choice. So I also agree that a man really should not be getting into these arguments with a woman anyway/ because that should of been known by both parties. So its a indictment on a man that he have to even argue the toss after the child is born.

Because if by chance condom buss/ and as a man you decide you will take responsibility/ and she wants to give even a hyphen surname then as far as Im concerned/ if you breed we nah response.

Yeah we all know that a centred man should not be sexing women he will not want as a wife but in the real world shit happens. Thats why its never good to be too hungry but thats another thread.

No matter how you turn it all sexual relations are implicitly or explicitly based on trust because we can only take people at what they say if we haven't seen them do things which directly and blatantly contradict her. The only sure fire way not to end up a baby father is not have sex with black women, because you can be in the steadiest of relationships and on occassions you will have sex unprotected and the women themselves will tell you its safe to have sex because they know their bodies and etc or they can feel their periods a day away or so so it is safe etc. So men will always be reliant on thier women for final word on that matter.

What you cannot predict is how the woman will behave once she is pregnant, especially if she begins to fall in line with others who then become her council when women are all around them and I have seen this a million times when girl friends have more influence in what is happening to their children than them. Children being raised by committee not a father.

So it is simple as BT said the child ah fi mi or he isnt and people can't have it both or all and every which way they like about having the cheek to tell a man he has no right to tear up any contract when somebody have the bare face to publicly humiliate him like a little boy for the pleasure of her girlfriends and fools like her..Joking the best thing a man can do for his son as my bredrin once said is to keep stepping and as he said his son ever front him he will tell him directly no woman's pussy or a child will ever have him for any gal's boy...

So any beef take it up with his mother and a whole heap of man that is what they say and can't wrong them. See women fail to understand simple basics in life. Men do not bear kids, there connections are more tenuous so when you start messing and playing around with that which is already thin the man can walk at any time because he plays a different role in a child's life and why men can be married like white men and abandon entire families with nuff kids and start another with another woman like it aint jack. Designed and build and culturally different. So many of these women just show how ignorant they are of basics. Men don't have wombs and therefore it plays no role in their actions or thinking. Not complicated is it.

BT..two points Inthink it has been said that you can't change a childs name without the consent of BOTH parents, so I'd be interested to know how thwe mother managed it without the fathers agreement....?

Second point you're right shit happens and sometimes we go places where we know we should have avioded..But at the end of the day we can't and shouldn't then complain if the woman takes liberties or cuts us out of the equation... Yera it hurts and yes its wrong but at the wend of the day the mistake was ours and sometimes the price of mistakes is HIGH!!!

Which is why i made the earlier point of being bloody careful who people swung their dick at.... I don't think that we [men] can have it BOTH ways... if we act irresponsibly nd shit happens then we must expect to pay a heavy price unless we get lucky and the woman has some sense...

Sorry Fred..but that simply is NOT true and I'm surprised that you keep stating that as a fact, you can absolutely predict what a person will do under pressure situations, if one bothers to explore or to find out... Yes some people can nd do attempt to mask their behaviours.. But in truth I've not meant a person yet who is able to do that consistently 24/7 all year round...

I think we [men and myself included] are putting way too much responsibility onto the woman, and none on us, about who are with... it would be interesting if all the men contributing to this thread, was to pick out a relationship that went bad and then was to reflected on what occurred. I would pretty much predict that most if they were honest with themselves, would look back and admit that yes their were indicators that they saw but ignored, glossed over with rose tinted.. or if they are very honest, just thought i just want what i want and was just single minded on that pursuit ...

Lets be adult and honest here...most of us when we want tings, really don't care about the others stuff, we just want our tings..and thats our sole aim.. So when we get jacked is our anger projected at the woman really about them, or about how stupid we were to get catch by some wotless wretch or some gold digging bitch... lets be very honest about this, and stop with the buck passsing...

[quote=Kunjufu;1446655]BT..two points Inthink it has been said that you can't change a childs name without the consent of BOTH parents, so I'd be interested to know how thwe mother managed it without the fathers agreement....?

Isnt that providing that the father has parental rights. Which is not automatic and has to be sought if they were never married. As far as Im concerend when baby born the mother can name the child Behelzibub if she really wants. Ive seen evidence of that myself where a 'relationship' mash up and the mother even change the child first name to rahted.

But Im still of the thought that you should of/could of known better. Because if I apply that to women then it must apply to man who end up with crazy baby mothers. the thing is and the reality is a man life is far less disrupted and changed the same way a woman is when they have a child in loose circumstances ( i.e not married or weak new realtionship).Women have so much more to lose so of course they must accept more responsibility. It comes with the territory of being a woman. As you said the nature of most man is when they want their tings they want just that. Especailly as a young bro. So women need to acknowledge that basic fact.

K have to disagree and applying your standards. I am one of the most fresh men you will ever meet back in my prime and pomp. Very discriminating, because I have a underyling cynical view of a whole heap of women..because what my eyes can see and what I was taught as a child..My mother taught me about the way women use pussy to hold man and that was back in the day..How women will do things to others and go as deep as obeah to smite a competitor or things women do for quality men..or worse go and breed for their heart throb and then run go look for a man of reputation or decency to fit the jacket on. So from day one we raised to be very vary of women because as my mother said men aint got shit on women when they are ready in the lying and deceiving and nastiness stakes....Men aint in it.

So I can tell you where women were concerned there are very few who are more calculating or discerning..I will repeat most people no matter how bright and informed are not trained or equipped to read the signs the way you claim. Bro I use to read books about sex and dating as a teenager so no fool you dealing with here because I wanted to understand this process in order to get it right. Same way a woman no matter how slick can know any man. People are like icebergs and even though we may suspect something we may never know how deep it goes. It is as if are being told to assume the worse about people or the women we deal with. In fact you may believe as I have done if that there is one woman in the world who would not draw certain cards it would be yours only to see her do it when in a tight corner and as Icognito has suggested nuff man get mash like that.
Pershaps it is wrong to see your woman as special.

Look you can have a woman who personifies bueaty and self confidence and sexuality and when you eventually are intimate with her it is the complete opposite. Are you in the position to know what that is a about: a, lack of confidence or shyness or female coyness which will pass with time or something more deeper. What happens if you have no reason to question your woman and then she switch and draw card..I have seen brothers walking around like zombies because pure shock...I am not talking about people who just let their cocks or hormones shape their decisions or people who quite frankly deserve what they get.

Furthermore and this is not only my experience. Some men which it may be difficult for many to appreciate actually love and feel very deeply for their women and are in established relationships and if they see problems actually work on them and think they have made progress and I have been there only to find out it is only game being played because face it if women have good men or good looking or whatever the currency is they are not wanting to give that man up. Trust me if you talk to many brothers of standing or high conciousness who man respect in our circles and you hear what some say it is an eye opener.

Let me give you an example which took place last week in this all brothers discussion. One extremely bright and talented young brother about 20 was telling us the problems he was having developing his career and the fact his girlfriend was pregnant and some of the shit she was doing which was 'doing his head in' to use his words. First time I met the brother so just have to listen, but he said the way she is going on despite him being determined to raise his child which he did not want actually but she did things look very grim. My man said even before when she is ready she is just irrational and he is a very rational, measured and cool young bro...Know there is a superior intellect and mind and work...

An older brother who is a very successful dude in his area, married with three kids then jumped in and said to the young brother everything you said about how women can behave and make a problem into something that just gets completely unmanageable mess every brother in this room without asking them could give you personal examples. What really rounded it off was this, one of the brothers in the session was an elder who I have known as a youth in the movement and was in it from he was a youth in the sixties and runs relationship workshops and has been doing it for the longest and he agreed with everything the brother said.

The point is even with best will in the world a reasonably intelligent and cautious man can find himself in this mess as the brother said you could be married with kids and still find the same ingredients which creates this problems there as well but at least the structure of marriage helps to hold shit in place. Do you know and I believe this there are probably more women in single parent families who put more into their children than in many two parent and married families. Because my brother if I told you how many of our outstanding black kids coming up if it were not for their fathers those kids would have barely little conciousness at all and when you meet the mothers you would think they are the epitome of all things good and black...Bro don't make me talk...What do you think intelligent concious guys choose women who love East Enders over talking or even reading to their kids....

So if we as experienced men can see how a decent brother can find himself in a mess, you can imagine those who are unthinking..

K. Forgot to say taking your base line argument further and what one of my bredrin has taught his kids, which I disagee with it to tell his sons stay away from any woman who does not come from a two parent family. Some of the best fathers come from homes where there were no fathers. You may want to get into statistical probabilies which would support your argument.

But human beings are not statistics..We all know a whole heap of woman who we know or meet who would give us that mushy feeling at meeting them because of human attraction and they are wonderful women with no apparent signs of madness. One of my crew has this wicked saying about people and learning from experience that some of the most impressive and philosophical people you meet are those most messed up. They given the impression they have learnt from experience and they aint learnt jack other than to impress witt their words.

Most folks would accept that this person has learnt and if you stand for certain things you can't just dimiss people like that...never mind if you actually fancy them..What is somebody going to tell me there is not a single mother who you would not consider a relationship with?

Not making excuses..but sometimes and this is not you but I get worn out by high morality idealism...Like man has never experienced what is like to be with women both good and bad and realise how by the grace of god go I and how easy it can happen...

It seems to me that reading this and some of the others before it, that the debate has shifted to 'looking good'. Why on this earth would you want to hold a name (identity) of someone you no longer have any connection with other than an act of nature AND you don't like the person (please note the AND).

My son holds his father's name and was born in wedlock. I changed my name when we divorced. My son proudly uses his father's name and the school know I am his mother. As already mentioned, my identity as his mother is not bound by a name and the need is not there in the way that a man needs it (until of course his daughters marry).

I feel no shame in my circumstances, it is a fact of life and I could have lost my ex-husband through death and been in the same circumstances as a widow.

I do not feel offended if the school refer to me by my ex-husbands name (for teachers who are not familiar with me) and furthermore, I owe no-body any explanations for my circumstances. So once again, my ego may choose to drive me to mental instability over this, or I can choose align my identity as a woman with a higher order which is linked into the fact that I procreated and carried my child which of course his dad could only stand-by and support.

It's a bit like a girl-friend of mine who used to wear a wedding band on her ring finger once she started having children with her then partner. It is a crazy mess we have got oursleves into when we enter into serious business like having children without the thing you hanker after, which is the formal commitment and identity of the relationship