Icongito...Check mate. What have I been saying from day one I join this forum. I am a man's man. Spend most of my life from school boy to mature married man with men and usually in charge of them in one capacity or the other. Spent my life in gymn changing rooms or with man from youth burring spliffs and reasoning. Name it I have done it...

You just replicated exactly what I have said..Because if you took all those brothers together and we know man who can be taken seriously and fools.and pool together what they say and why they say it..You cannot dismiss those views. Only other men can come with different argument or angle..but women can't test that and if wise should learn the free lessons or education as they usually will never be party to it..

There are clearly different agendas at work and it would appear one which is more about conserving black people and family etc and other seen as the new modernism which a lot of women have bought into big time without even reading the product label..

FredB - yeah that's me alright, a mans man...luckily there are still some women out there who like their men that way...strictly pet and powder business. can't be bothered with this new generation of westernised women, their equivalent to pet and powder is sucking your knob.

Greetings Maat.You said :'There's so much I had to say to some of you individually. The biggest shock has been FredB's response but I'd rather go back to the brother in the start of this thread.

No shock Just your natural presumptions which you assumed I would share without asking me..

There are many so called Afro centric myths or so called concious mythologies around..I am a radical not a mythologists...

Women being ultimately responsible for their bodies etc is as AFrican centred as it comes and I learnt that from my mother and my sisters. Messing with a man's name and clan identity is African as it gets and learn that from my father...

So I reverse the question who is shocked says a lot about what we believe..and from whence it hails from..My views stem from culture..and not a theoretical one either

If you are going to sum up people's argumetns in this fashion 'Sex is something that is beyond their control' That's called a clearly bias summary....Tell me do women put their cocks into men or vice versa think about it and the dynamics involved....

You are trying to pose as a nuetral party but your bias is blantant. I don't hide my cultural bias because that is how our cultures worked for million years and for good reason..

Icognito You aint telling nish..Plenty women of all social rank, educational backgrounds and leaning love proper men..Hence why this white boy new man shit just made me laugh..In fact I have a formula the more of these modern women you piss off or diss the more female admirers you have..So me can piss them off all day and night..

I didn't know being a 'man's man' is was supposed to be a negative given female response in the real world...

On a serious tip three brothers come to my mind..You, Le Moore and Bredda Tekuma and I will say why..Over a long time I have check one thing in these debates is this most women or too many want some black male champion to fly their flag and cause based on a script written and dictated by them which is technically a pussy in any language..No man of reason will not identify failings in men and probably been doing in longer than these women, but that is not what they want..but to reduce us to their level of stupidity and irrationality...As Le Moore once said in an argument which had me on the floor trying to hold my entrails from spilling out, when he said he was no Keith Sweat had me rolling. All of us know and love old school KS but we know his flex to fluff up and make these sisters feel how they want to feel..Which I aint got not difficulties with as long as it is premised on TRUTH...

But needs, individual or socially and truth aint one and the same..The problem politically is this any Keith Sweat kinda brother aint winning any argument with black men no shape or form..Never has or never will. Hence why I always cite that Malcolm X quote because he was no Keith Sweat..baby baby baby..or is it African Queen African Queen mother of the universe or whatever it is gets them all warm and tingly these days..Rank is earned not simply assumed..

Here is where Tekuma stays in my mind. Great lines remain with me when he said the worse kind of cocksman or best are exactly the man them who will Keith Sweat it in argument..I had guys back in the day want to be heroe and have show down with me on these issues knowing all the mops in the place were out of commission and I would end up using their face as a replacement. Never stop themselves sacrificing themselves and making themselves a laughing stock..

But here the joke them boys were scamers and the biggest cocskmen going..Ride three or four of the sisters dying for some Warrior hero to put this animal Fred and his ilk in their plade and end up breeding them all and chipping..Brothers like me should have got a commission from those guys because if it was not for us they would not be ridding down those much needy sisters who needed a hero to do their bidding.

The amount of times I have been told i am so shocked by what you said Fred..I am so vex \i want to this that and the other..Just greasing them up so them slimy Keith Sweat boys can do their things while they are talking about guys like us on their bed mattress..

Glad to provide much needed social service. The thing is we show respect to these sisters by telling them the truth and what we feel rather than lubricating them up for whatever...

Freddie - yeah bro, I call it playing the girls fiddle...which has never been me...got too much respect for them to do that. See it everyday, how can a woman represent me where my only job is to appease her shortcomings when I'm there trying to make her face her fears to be an even better person than she believes she's capable of but they never get past the first hurdle because everything is dealt with from a position of self defence and as such everything they hear is interpreted that way. Man if it wasn't for me my ex would be still telling herself she cannot read a streetmap A-Z.

When I was at my hook up a few weeks ago, one thing was quite clear, there is a calibre of woman where every other man on this planet can teach them something apart from their man, when it comes to him these muppets no it all....all come in one day trying to tell you something that you were trying to tell them months ago but it wwas coming from you and they can't be seen to be your inferior...again an interpretation borne out of nothing else but their own muppet mentality.

I like to believe their is more to women than that, but as most of my friends keep telling me, it's me who is the muppet. Still, seen enough in the new wifey to appreciate it's almost impossible to avoid the dime a dozen on your path to finding your wife.

Greetings Maat.You said :'There's so much I had to say to some of you individually. The biggest shock has been FredB's response but I'd rather go back to the brother in the start of this thread.

No shock Just your natural presumptions which you assumed I would share without asking me..

But uncle you didn't even ask me what it was that shocked me! I didn't assume that you would not share but a man of your calibre and experience I thought would have been able to consider the female in some way but I get the impression that the female is not a partner but a competitor or the enemy. Is this the case?

There are many so called Afro centric myths or so called concious mythologies around..I am a radical not a mythologists...

Women being ultimately responsible for their bodies etc is as AFrican centred as it comes and I learnt that from my mother and my sisters. Messing with a man's name and clan identity is African as it gets and learn that from my father...

So are you saying that it is tradition for a woman to mess with a mans name?? I'm not disputing the culture but tell me...how is that a man can take his cultural heritage so seriously that he wants the culture of the name but not the culture of having a wife? This just doesn't seem to add up.

So I reverse the question who is shocked says a lot about what we believe..and from whence it hails from..My views stem from culture..and not a theoretical one either

For me it just says alot more about what we have learnt, who we have learnt from and what we have yet to learn.

If you are going to sum up people's argumetns in this fashion 'Sex is something that is beyond their control' That's called a clearly bias summary....Tell me do women put their cocks into men or vice versa think about it and the dynamics involved....
Of course not and I am well aware of MANY dynamics that come into play but you see from what I could gather in one of your earlier posts the responsibility is more down to the woman which really keeps bringing us back to this buck passing I have often heard from so many over the years. Contrary to what you said about us women not having or wanting to have a clue about men, I and others I know have gone to great lengths to overstand their men. Can I ask, for all the men you have spoken to in the group discussions and so on, have they expressed a want to try and overstadn where she may be coming from?

To be honest as we are on dynamics I have to agree 100% that communication is a big problem and has been the key problem in my own relationship. After 15 years of these dynamics the relationship I thought I had is over. I have no one else to blame but myself.

You are trying to pose as a nuetral party but your bias is blantant. I don't hide my cultural bias because that is how our cultures worked for million years and for good reason..

Even though these points were taken from the thread itself - I am not trying, I am biased because I am a woman which is why I posed the question to the men. For all the comments I've seen from the brothers on here only LeMoor and Kunjufu seem to be looking from both sides, hence again I was surprised when you didn't. The other thing is that men can have the fullest respects for their mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters but when it comes to their mate the rules change. Why is that? I mean the fact that the mother of a mans children put her life on the line and the fact that both she and his child could have died through childbirth means very little if anything at all.

Sis Maat sorry did not come back to this I could not remember what section it was when I came to look for it..

'But uncle you didn't even ask me what it was that shocked me! I didn't assume that you would not share but a man of your calibre and experience I thought would have been able to consider the female in some way but I get the impression that the female is not a partner but a competitor or the enemy. Is this the case?'

You are correct I simply assumed that we would disagree so lets see...

First.Not at all. There are women who have been mislead, dumped etc all kinds of thing by men. Women who genuinely believe love talk etc and just end up in a bad place. I know a few sisters who are almost bueatiful in their naivety if you take my meaning. Genuinely love certain men to the air that they breath and man just ruthless and ugly with them. Women who have to leave violent or generally abusive men..So I can talk that all day. But that is not the general factor driving these large number of single parent families..

Just check the numbers..
I said:
'There are many so called Afro centric myths or so called concious mythologies around..I am a radical not a mythologists...

Women being ultimately responsible for their bodies etc is as AFrican centred as it comes and I learnt that from my mother and my sisters. Messing with a man's name and clan identity is African as it gets and learn that from my father...'

So are you saying that it is tradition for a woman to mess with a mans name?? I'm not disputing the culture but tell me...how is that a man can take his cultural heritage so seriously that he wants the culture of the name but not the culture of having a wife? This just doesn't seem to add up.

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Even if a male fails by so many things. don't mean he doesn't have strong feelings about his name regarding the child or it can be used as a lever and is more likely to make shit worse..Look back home women gave fathers names even to wotless men.

The whole thing sister is messed up because a wife is not just woman who is preganant. The basic conditions for stable and decent relationships simply do not exist. Women who are wife's or who become them tend to know what those conditions are. The decline in marriage is much down the failing of women as it is of men. Sis you aint sexing my wife as girlfriend etc indefinitely etc and whatever unless both of you are working towards that end..Aint happening and she aint breeding for you and will abort and make it clear as day.

I can tell you from experience there are fundamental differences between women which leads to their social denigration which they collude in and othe women where that is never going to happen and I don't mean in any nasty or ugly way. Just that these women understand what is it that makes women valuable to men and what makes men commit to them. Guess what it is among other things...attitude to abortion. My wife is one of several women I have been intimate with who have that attitude and the feminine and personal power that gives them.

It is not a state secret that women have potentially massive power over men, often in ways which are not reciprocal . Women have influenced men since time begun. So why is it too many women have lost this basic understanding while other still have it?. You see they understand men, themselves and women kind and thus always have their source of power. Men value women highly in key contexts and not just sex but in a whole heap of everyday interactions where a woman contributes to her value, status and impact on men or they can diminish it same way.

Key to that is the basic thing of choosing men who basically speak vaguely the same language as you, because that is similar references and knowing what works within that context. You don't throw diamonds to pigs. This allows a woman to manage and influence men. She knows what she has is of value to her and him For example with the women I mentioned, including my wife what they have is powerful self discipline and extremely careful in how they select. Not fresh or arrogant because that is off putting..So when those women choose you or make you think your smart and fool yourself to think you are choosing them, they bestow an honour on your pride and ego as a man. The place of a woman in a man's ego is key.

You want to have her because just the thought of anotehr man encroaching on thse good is just too much..They have great sexual discipline in so far as they do not use sex as some weapon so only a few special men even going to taste them cake...Finally, even where they do their best to take contraception etc..There aint no way they will ever get pregnant without marrying..It will never happen. Children and marriage are inseparable and about their status and position as women and that of their child..You can't love them and put that kind of shame on them and they don't care.. Their own standards will not allow it and that shows personal power which in itself is attractive and they don't have to scream or argue about it..Just the way it is and you could be Prince charming it aint happening and nothing more powerful than and a determined female who knows her value in that context. Women don't have to scream this out it is because it is.

All of these women would not blink to abort any pregnancy. As my wife and an one girlfriend once said..How many women of high status anywhere in the world or at any time you find will breed for men outside marriage. Hence why when you hear too many modern women coming with this line of argument that some how abortion is against black culture. Really? Women been having abortions in Africa and the Caribbean since time begun...especially high status women. Ordinary women often hide their own personal needs behind arguments about the right to life, but those women take into consideration the status of their child and the life it may have and their own compared to what they think they have a natural right to based on who they are and how that should be valued by the right man.

So the cultural tools and power of our women in many respects unlike their men n has been abandoned by women leaving them with even less resources to positively influence and manage men and being one of the most decisive influence most women can have on their men directly or indirectly. Women do not have to tell me what to do, I naturally calculate in my actions how its impacts on them and make sure it is positive. That is the influence of woman she does not even have to say anything. One day my wife's sisters were quizzing her to wasn't she concerned that she did not have any written legal paper work or stuff which directly gave her control over my assets other than my life insurance and similar stuff.

My wife said to them why should she have to worry about that? . She said one thing she knew and did not even think about is this she doesn't need any paper to know she is completely taken care of as is her children and no other woman or anything could interfere with that..She is absolutely right because she knows her man and how important she has been to him and is in a whole heap of ways. She knows my family and close circle who she married into. Call it arrogance, smugness or a woman who knows her place and influence with her man.

Too many of our women have lost the feminine art of power and how they value themselves and how that impacts on men, which regulates and shapes their behaviour positively without any cynical or dirty tricky dealings..Just pure old fashioned honest stuff. So men today have less regard for their women, women less value in the eyes of men and unable to shape the behaviour of men positively.

Do you know how many old men back home drink the piss that comes out of their wives arse? Do we know how many men who started life going in all foolish kind of directions with a help of a good woman on her game, transform them man and they will tell you straight and proud of it. Men who use to blast their wages come pay day with friends and stuff ,and even want t come home and fight them when the woman talking to them about being responsible. And look at those men today or many of them before they died..live like kings and achieve good things and if the wife want to go on a Caribbean or world cruse don't care how much it costs..His princess and she can floss it. Know nuff men like that love their women like food.

Women put fine gloss on men with a bit rough edges, but genuinely good men and they knew it, could see it and manage it. My brother in law runs his own business. Funny thing is he was the last to know about it. My sister decided that he should, he was good enough and with her managerial know how and drive and pure stubbornness to wear a man out when she got the bit between her teeth, he had to come around and he has his business today.

Crying shame when we see how much black women have, they themselves no longer realise that and looking to false gods to find the answers and all is happening is their status and influence is decreasing faster than any time before. Both my aunty and mother when pissed off looking at too many women say these young girls simply don't have a clue when dealing with men not a iota..As I have repeated on here before. My mother married a man several ranks higher than her in our class system and the old man left a hot woman from his own social class at the alter literally to do it. Why is a man going to that and throw that good money away which his finance would bring to their collective estate and classy woman in her own right..? You see this information was known by women of all social ranks, which is why my poor granny could instil it in her daughter.

My old mother influences and indirectly rules my old man to this day..No accident or coincidence.