Melissa - There you go again, all you see this all you see t hat, well all you see is nish, you're defending babymothers getting dissed not the children, you cannot fool me. I' talking about a child who is living and being raised by his mother saying he does not want a woman like his mother...he's been saying that from 8 years old..even more so when he goes and she how his dad is living with his new woman.

You have raised your sons to defend your face. I will raise mine to never disrepect a woman by making her a babymother and to steer as far away from that mentality as they can.

Respect for his mother and the woman he would like for himself are two different things.

And yes, you have to use what other people will despise for them to understand how much you despise something else....and with these difference then ask to define what raising a child means when one person is found out to be pretending to be operating on the same values as yourself.

Babymothers/babyfathers, there's nuff man and woman into this, don't associate me with it and use your values to tell me what I should or should not be doing for my children. Leave that to you and your class....I'll try and find mine.

I know men who are happy being babyfathers and fully accept my position. I didn't set out to be one, I am one by association, that's where it will stop with me.

All this there for you when you need him bullsh!t...a father should just be there, how do you do that with multiple babymothers...your definition of what a parent is must be different to mine....don't associate me with it.

...and please, if I hear one more babymother using the fact that their children are educated, balanced and not killing anyone as a means to justify or excuse the cultural wotlissness of babymotherism.......

I am not judging you by my standards I am judging you by your own words. As for the term 'babymother/father, I don't like them myself purely because of the negative connotations they carry. But I don't mind my ex's referring to me as their babymother, because I know for them it as no negative connotations.

It shouldn't be down to her if they need to see you. Infact they shouldn't need to see you. You should be seeing them all the time anyway. And there isn't no 'if' they need to see you, they do need to see you.

The way you are coming across a white woman might be all that is available to you....let go of the bitterness, you will end up with bowel cancer.

Tahliba - no negative connotations when compared to what, if that is your standard it's normal, there is no concept of abnormality when abnormality is your reference point....or at best you look to soap operas or the scum of the earth for abnormal. My words? girls got jokes.

Here's a saying for you, "stifled progress is directly proportional to the compromised life being lived. In this scenario the scales of success are re-calibrated where what should be measured as a mile is seen as achieved after an inch".

Compromise - our standards are on the scale of inches because that's what our minds and our values have been reduced to.

Sargaco - still working on it eh? Well here's some light reading for you...I would like to have edited it and removed the references to Africa so not to prejudice your mind

http://www.jicef.or.jp/wahec/ful217.htm

Finding yourself in the situation in itself must be hard enough without making yourself feel worse and trying to be the whole family for your child or children. It will only be a constant reminder to the children if the parent constantly reminds them of it. This is why it bothers me when one parent is always saying negative things about the other parent - to the child. I don't think it's hypocrytical because it wasn't one parent alone that contributed to the break up so I see no need for one to carry that burden. Just because things didn't work out for you doesn't mean that you can't promote a strong family unit to your children. To me the values of a strong family unit and a two parent nuclear family unit are different things.

Coming from a single parent family myself I have to say that I never once felt like I didn't have a strong family and with that family values. Family to me was those around me who I learned alot from, interacted with and saw regularly - not just my mum and sister. Most in my family are single parents yet for me this was an example of a strong family unit because that's what we had. It wasn't an issue about who was in it it just was. As much as I may moan about them at times, what I can say is that the biggest thing I receeived from my family was a lot of love and as soppy as that may sound it's true. Having both parents was the least of my worries and when I did have both yes it was good. If I didn't have their contributions to my foundation then I wouldn't have been able to sustain my nuclear family now.

As long as both parents can be humble enough to at least be amicable about the children and their upbringing it can work. I'm sure it will take both to have a lot of maturity and don't imagine it to be easy at all.

Maat - this survival mentality just really peeves me off. All this talk about strong families when we're all living off government handouts and babylon benefits (which includes their free schooling)....pisses me right off!!...

We're so caught up in this strong to survive bullsh!t that we fail to see collectively we're nothing but a load of wotliss low life beggars.

Again Mel, you're trying to come across as intelligent from a survivalist mentality. You again come with a typical shallow self centred survivalist reply. My arguments and perspective is based on us doing for ourselves including our own schools not to mention our own real estate. The only reason this will not happen is because we do not know the meaning of taking our minds out of the gutter and view success as our children not going to prison. I'm into advancement, anyone wallowing in survival antics by hustling their way to babylons security I can't help them....if they want to scapegoat my children in their attempt to achieve financial security that is out of my control.

In my scheme of things I have done everything possible for my children, I married their mother, I cahnged my plan of buying my house to making sure the baby and their mother were housed at the mothers convenience i.e. as close to her family as possible, I taught my boys to read and count, I done the school run when the wife was pregnant with the second, my finances were an open book as my money belonged to the family, in return I got grey boy dinners, babymothers going halves on their kids to maintain their careers and people hanging about as if they are waiting for someone to eat their minge or something.

Even now, if my input is so precious then the babymother has always got the option of making me raise them while she visits and plays the part time parent....and I wouldn't need her to bank roll that either or use her low class babymother survival values to hold her hostage.

People are defending their pridicaments as if it was ever anything other than it is now. Relationships go wrong and all that bullsh!t, it never was a relationship, it always was a babymother/babyfather situation in some fantasy belief that it was going somewhere further. I put my values and my aspirations on the line and all the babymother saw was the security of her own independance.

Everybody here talking about what they have done to survive, it's blood curdling, listening to you guys makes me feel like I'm watching a black and white movie from back in the 50's.

I'm not playing tug of war with my children, she raises them or I do because the two people trying to teach them different value systems is a bigger recipe for disaster than anything else. My children know where I am, if I leave the country I'll make sure they can contact me as well. Part time dad bullsh!t, I'm not in it. My boys are now my friends, anyone raising them better be able to afford that as I aint giving nobody any support to have my children dumbed down in front of a tv, feeding them sh!t and teaching them to hate and be ashamed of Africa.

Damned wotliss babymothers who think they are doing you a favour or giving you the privilege to be with your own children as if they made these babies on their own....I can't be entertaining it, i'll wait till the boys are old enough and be there to provide an alternative if it is needed before that time.

Sargaco and any babymother here, when you talk about relationships and relationships break down, please enlighten me to the value system your relationships where based on which made you believe it would amount to anything more than it is - before you answer I can guarantee my babymnother shared it...hence babymother.

People talking about get over it comparing their babymother/babyfather value system with that of an African family structure - they clearly had nothing to get over apart from a little heartache and want to come run up their mouth with rastaman!

Unless you are talking about one system hustling another you can't talk to me, keep all your babymother shegries amongst your type, my argument is for the cultured folk around here.

Come on Incognito, you know that's not the case. Our mothes had to survive. What else should they do? The women in my family were all workers. Who else was going to provide for them?

In a way it's good to hear you saying you want to have more involvement in your children's lives but the reality is that you are going to have to use whatever means you need to to make sure you are in their lives. OK you don't want to go through the route of the system. I totally agree with you but the reality is that you and your ex are going to have to come to some agreement if that's going to happen and you are going to have be very istrumental in that.

The fact that you have been involved in your childrens' lives so far has and will always have a big impact on them. I disagree that there's not much else you can do for them now, because if there's one thing I often hear from the child who loses touch with a parent is why did you leave ME not my mum or dad but ME. You can't just be their friend now you will allways be their dad and you need to fight for them brother. Buying them things is not all they need. If you can, keep communicating with them at least. As hard as it might be the children will still have that contact with you.

Don't take whatever is being thrown at you without a fight. If you really want to enforce the family unit you have to make it happen. You can at least make sure they interact with your side of the family too. Even with a break up - although you may not want to hear it right now - I belive it is possible.

Maat - our mothers had to survive? so did our fathers. They survived so we didn't have to, made sacrifices to give us an easier path, they survived so we could live better improved and advanced lives only to see us living even worse than they did.

Life is a survival, my life is a continuation of the struggles of my parents and their parents and theirs etc...if it is a survival thing you still survive in unity, this fragmentation bullsh!t is contrary to that and I'll go as far as saying it actually magnifies the effort of what it takes to survive which is why it is seen as such an achievement if you pull through. It's complete nonsense.

Again I'll try and illustrate. It's like you are on earth and you dig yourself a deep deep hole, jump inside it and want to give yourself credit for climbing out of it where instead of comparing yourself to the people who built structures and infrastructures instead of holes, you look at the people still struggling to get out of the holes they dug for themself as a means of making yourself feel good - after which you then proceed to form social groups to debate politics and devise philosophies and develop perceived intelligence based on lifes ultimate goal of how to reach the surface.

And nuff man never get there, indeed they and the future generations born down there get so absorbed in their own survival they lose the realisation that the surface they are trying to reach is where 'they' started from. These are usually the first to talk about others being on high horses and also expect you to apologise for not digging a hole.

So yes, in one way or another life is about survival but it's more the question of what level are you surviving at i.e pit digging breadline Britain or building structures towards the mass exodus for the movement/advancement of Jah people.

Yeah our parents had to survive but again, it was so we didn't have to, not to continue in the same way in the belief that what they went through was normal. But the one mistake I won't make again is to believe we all interpret life like this and that goes for excusing those wotliss parents who use survival as a scapegoat. So again I say if you interpret self pit digging as normal then don't be trying to be comparing yourself to those who don't. Not you personally of course, in general.

There seems to be this mentality that suggests progress is digging an even deeper hole than your parents did and if you manage to climb out of it you done better than them because being deeper it took more effort to dig in the first place and even more effort to get out of it - pure backward disoriented wotlisnness....and that's not even to mention those still burrowing away from the surface thinking they are in heaven.

Fight? it's pure bollox, that's the babymothers class, that's what she's used to, she'll find the right person to bungle with, I have nothing to prove in that arena. Indeed you only fight when classes collide....she'll find another babyfather, I'll find my wife so the fighting will be history, let the children sit down in one place.

My children are the root of my life, they are the reward for the years god has blessed me with on this earth...these are the qualities not shared but things babymothers look for when they are on a hustle. Your values are a weakness which when the crunch comes can be sold to secure the sellers survival....with the slavemaster and low lives needing a helping hand to dig themself out of their own pit, there's never a shortage of buyers.

I go about my life as if my children are still in it so if we are to unite in the future we simply carry on as if we were never apart. When I see my boys now it's like long lost friends at a reunion with so much to talk about and so much catching up to do, this is just the way it is, if I can't raise them then I'll do what I've always been doing, building for their future and pray they are blessed with righteousness and consciousness to see things for what they really are.

Again, someone needs to define 'raising children' for me because this money monkey and babyfather is there when I need him bull doesn't wash with me - to me that's bank rolling a babymother not raising your child....even worse when everyone involved is busy digging themself out of their own pits. It's wotless and no half daddy solution is going to deny that or make you feel like it isn't. Innocent children being bounced around two parents who have themselves now become settled, can't