said is the wrong wrong word. I knew that as i was writing it but didn't think to change it still. In the hypothetical god is telling you your future, he knows it because he is all knowing. He has reveled to you the choices you will make. For the ease of this lets say that God says that you will be faced with a road and given the option of right or left you will choose left. Since this is God we are talking about we must assume he is not lying, this is not a test, he is simply telling you what is around the corner. So now All Knowing and Honest God has looked into your future and seen that you will choose left. He has decided to tell you this. The hypothetical has been asking are you able to go right instead. God isn't commanding or asking he's stating this as a matter of fact. Could you go right and prove him false. Not would you, but do you posses the option to go right in this situation knowing full and well that if you go right it would mean that God was wrong about the choice you would make and the future he has seen for you or made for you is untrue.

God Does Not Make Machine.

It is important to know that God does not make machines, he make people. God does not use slaves. He give you the choice to serve him or reject him. God do not rape people, nor manipulate them. He bargain with you. We see this bargaining took places between him and Moses, and with every one that he as called to service.

God Told You To Choose Life.

Deut. 30:19 (KJV) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Jeremiah 21:8 (KJV) And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.

Deut. 11:26-28 (KJV) Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; [27] A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: [28] And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

The Palestinian Covenant
Fifteen Conditions:
1. If you hearken diligently to My commandments (Deut. 11:13)
2. If you love the Lord your God (Deut. 11:13,22)
3. If you serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul
4. If you take heed to your heart not to be deceived (Deut. 11:16)
5. If you do not turn aside to serve other gods and worship them
6. If you lay up My words in your heart and in your soul (Deut. 11:18)
7. If you bind them for a sign upon your hands and frontlets between your eyes
8. If you teach them to your children when you sit in your house, walk by the way, lie down, rise up (Deut. 11:19)
9. If you write them on the door posts of your house and upon your gates (Deut. 11:20)
10. If you diligently keep and do all My commandments which I command you (Deut. 11:22)
11. If you walk in all His ways
12. If you cleave to Him
13. I set before you a blessing and a curse—a blessing if you obey the commandments; a curse, if you will not obey, and if you turn away from them to go after other gods (Deut. 11:26-28)
14. In the land you shall write the blessing on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal (Deut. 11:29-30)
15. Observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day (Deut. 11:32)
Fourteen Blessings:
1. Rain in due season upon the land, the former rain and the latter rain (Deut. 11:14). The early rain fell in October to moisten the parched soil and prepare it for sowing. The latter rain fell in March to bring the crops to maturity
2. Abundant crops of grain, wine, and oil
3. Good pastures for stock that you may be prosperous and full (Deut. 11:15)
4. Your days will be multiplied (Deut. 11:21).
5. The days of your children will be multiplied in the land.
6. Blessings as the days of heaven on earth
7. Complete victory over all the nations of the promised land (Deut. 11:23)
8. You shall possess all their lands and property.
9. Everywhere you walk shall be yours, from the wilderness on the south to Lebanon on the north, and from the river Euphrates on the east to the Mediterranean on the west (Deut. 11:24).
10. No man shall be able to defeat you or stand before you as long as you keep My covenant (Deut. 11:25).
11. God will put a fear of you upon all the inhabitants round about.
12. A blessing, if you obey the covenant (Deut. 11:27)
13. A constant reminder of God's covenant (Deut. 11:29-30)
14. Success in the conquest and possession of the land to dwell therein (Deut. 11:31)
Five Curses:
1. The Lord's wrath kindled against you (Deut. 11:17)
2. No rain from heaven
3. Crop failures
4. To perish quickly from off the good land given you by God
5. A curse if you disobey My covenant or if you go after other gods and worship them (Deut. 11:26-28)

*zeb* i think we are going in circles here. First and foremost God wouldn't sit there and tell you your whole future, what would be the purpose of that? If God weren't All knowing, what would be the sense of worshipping such God *zeb*? either you think you are a god or just don't simply believe in one. Let me give you an example *zeb* a brother of mines brother *Gabriel* had a vision, in this vision he saw everything that would happen to my sister if she kept living the lifestyle she was living. My sister had been disobeying God for a while and not listening, brother *Gabriel* talked to her and was telling her the vision he had and told her everything that would happen if she didn't change her life. My sister chose to listen and stopped leading the life that she was for a while, and things did really change for her, but after a few months she went back to the same lifestyle that she was living and the vision came to pass accordingly. Being a witness to all of this she did have a choice in the matter, we aren't robots *zeb* i have free will to do what i please, but God knows my heart, i know myself that no matter what doctrines & ideologies come my way i will never be moved. If God opens a door of escape, we ought to make our escape, otherwise we do not trust God, but tempt him.

It is written in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Bible does make it clear that there is an elect, this phrase "if possible" has made some people wonder, "Can the elect be deceived?". If they are deceived, then they are not the elect! This is because the elect do something that keeps them from being deceived! It is not as if God says, "Here's this one group. I am not going to let them be deceived." That is not how it works. They are the elect because they do not allow themselves to be deceived.

Amen to that bro *Meknow* so true i totally agree with you, we are human and will make mistakes, we all fall short.

Isn't this contradicting yourself *Zeb* did anybody notice these statements, if you do not believe in a God why are you trying to prove otherwise?. Why do you question the God of the bible? If you do not believe in him?....

it is not a contradiction. When taken out of context it could look like that but even in the case you present it's not a contradiction. As i've stated many times before, in this thread i am not trying to prove that God does not exist, im trying to point out that the existence of God Removes freewill and so far none of have answered the hypothetical successfully.

None of you have said that in the hypothetical situation you would be able to go right and prove God false which means that in the end your lives and choices are predetermined which removes true free will and instead grants you the illusion of free well and the ability to make choices, because in the end you are always going to choose the option that has already laid out for you.

this isn't that complicated, either you can against the future that The All Knowing All Powerful Infallible has already seen you will have or you cannot. If you can then you have free will if you cannot than you have no free will, you are just a train on the tracks he has laid out for you long before you were even born.

It very much is a contradiction *Zeb*. How can you say that you do not believe in a God, then in another statement say that you're not trying to prove that god does not exist. Either you believe or you dont.

God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.
However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well. In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21). But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

if as you have said before God already decided for us, since you say we have no free will choice why does he waste time telling us the way to go? better yet why do we make the wrong choices?

you are really confusing your self with trying to tie the existance of God with believers not having free will zeb. if God has already decided our choices for us then why is it that we make wrong ones so much displeasing him?

if there was no ability for choice then there would be no need for the judgements that mankind will experience....

im not god....whatever plan that people say he normally has im not even pretending to understand. Not trying to. But here is what im laying out

A) God is All Knowing.
B) If you say that God does not know what choices you will make then you are saying his power is limited.
C) If God knows what choices you will make then your fate is predetermined, your future is not a unknown factor and it cannot be changed, it has been decided.
D) If your fate is predetermined then you have no free will because you cannot change your fate.

That is the argument, again you guys are dancing around it . If "A" is true then "B" is true. If "A" is true then "C" is true. If "C" is not true then "A" is not true, wherein God is no longer All Knowing. If "C" is true then "D" is true. Again none of you are challenging this argument. You are merely stating your feelings or opinions in the matter or quoting scripture. This is not an opinion or question issue. It is one of simple logic. Like math. 1+1=2. So now i've laid out the argument in a much more pragmatic way.

To prove "B" "C" or "D" wrong would prove "A" wrong, that is fact. Now prove me wrong. An argument that is not based on logic will not stand up against an argument that is. If You can prove "B" "C" or "D" without proving "A" wrong then state how. That is all i am interested, that is what i have been asking which none of you have answered. I get bored of this circle game very quickly....

@Truth23 Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean im out to prove he exist. Especially in this thread. Your mentality though is made very clear here in that since i am on with you i must automatically be actively against you. That says alot about you, nothing that i didn't already suspect but is has never been more clear. In order for my argument to work then God must at the very least exist. When i want to try and prove God doesn't exist trust me, you'll know, i'll make it very clear. I am discussing God on the basis that he exist and is All Knowing, All Powerful, and Infallible. Whether i truly believe that he is all those things or even that he exist is not relevant to the discussion because for the sake of the discussion i have acknowledge his existence under those terms. There is no contradiction. The only way that would be a contradiction is if i was trying to prove god does not exist and i am not.

I'm glad we got that clear...let me get this straight *zeb*...so you are not trying to prove god doesn't exist, yet you do not believe in a God......you are really confusing yourself *zeb*. Do you know what Theological fatalism is *zeb*???? it is an attempt to demonstrate a logical contradiction between an omniscient God and free will, where free will is defined as the ability to choose between alternatives. In this it is similar in purpose to the conundrum "Can an omnipotent God make a rock so heavy that even he is not able to lift it?"

Theological fatalism’s premises are stated as follows: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, God has infallible foreknowledge. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in an event (mow the lawn), then you must invariably engage in that event (mowing the lawn). Therefore, free-will is not possible since you have no alternative except to engage in the event (mow the lawn). In the event that you do not fulfill event, then God is not omniscient. Alternatively, if you engage in event, then you don't have free will on account of the inability to choose another alternative.

Since you embrace this theory as a method in trying to explain God, lets play by your rules. First and foremost If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in an event, then you will freely choose this based on your free will, not out of obligation or lack of choice about the event. You still have free will to engage in the event; God merely knows your choice before you make it. You are not obliged to make choice 'A' (mowing the lawn) any more than choice 'B' (playing tennis). If you were going to change your mind, God would have seen that also, so you still have full free will in all matters. Also, you will still make the same choices (with free will), even if God chose to not see the future. Seeing the future or not does not alter your free will.

With passive foreknowledge, if it were kept hidden, it would not invalidate free will in any logical or rational way. The individual choosing event 'A,' would be making the exact same choices regardless of whether God knew the choices beforehand. God knowing or not knowing the future (passively) would not alter the free will of individuals at all. The demise of free will would only logically come if God made His knowledge public in regard to the freewill choice of individuals; this would alter future free will and make it an obligation.

To go one step further, here are some other implications: There is a vast difference between Predestination, Fatalism and Chance (or Fortune).

Fatalists teach that there is a blind, impersonal force, back of which there is no Divine purpose and over which none has control—not even God—and that the things which happen in this world are swept along by this blind power. This is Fatalism.

Chance (or Fortune) means that things "happen" luckily, that things are not controlled and directed by God. According to Chance, God can foresee what will happen, but that is all. Everything is mere luck. And if the advocate of Chance is asked why or how things come to pass, he has no reply except to say that "it just happened."

Predestination, the doctrine of the Bible, says that God has a purpose and He is working all things out according to His own will and purpose (Ephesians 1:11, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 14:24 and 46:10).

Predestination teaches that God does nothing nor does He permit anything except that which serves to carry out His purpose (Psalm 33:11). This means that GOD IS the SOVEREIGN of the world, the One who does all things as He wills.

Those who blankly say or believe "what is to be, will be" are as wrong as the advocates of chance. It is true that events are certain, but only so because of the sovereign God who fulfills His own decrees. Actually, those who believe "what is to be, will be," without considering God, are as difficult to convince of the Bible doctrine of predestination as those who believe in chance or fortune.

Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen." They understand that a wise, holy, good and sovereign God has the control and guiding hand in every detail of life (Matthew 10:29-30). The only man who does not really want God to have this control, or the man who despises the truth that God does have the control, is the person who does not love God and does not want God in his life. He wants his own will and way. He wants God on one side, and he wants to be on the other. He, like the devils of old, would say, "Leave us alone." But not so; God is sovereign, and He cannot deny Himself.

Source
-What is fatalism doc-.
-The Bible-

I am well versed in most of the philosophical arguments that deal with the contradictions of God. I also find it extremely ironic that in the same thread where you chastised me for copying and pasting, something i do sparingly, you copy and pasted an entire article as your response. Not only did you copy and paste it but you paraphrased parts of it to better suit your argument. The real question is are YOU familiar with anything you copied and pasted, i think not, otherwise you wouldn't have needed to. I am disappointed.

The actual article you copy and pasted gives the two sides of the argument. Considering that it comes from a bias standpoint ie. a bible site (i lold) it does give the fair points of the two but it clearly does not say that one argument is greater than the other. It simply gives the counter argument which you posted which, while very well written, does not save you. It is a counter argument but it does not refute the the original argument. If that were the case than you could very easily argue that the original argument refutes the counter argument and then we would get nowhere. It is an age old argument and both sides have merit. But like you once said, you can't google your way out of this one.

Im not going to keep repeating myself. I have placed before you a pragmatically composed argument. You cannot copy and paste an answer. I am not challenging the beliefs and knowledge of others, i am challenging your knowledge of what you so proudly put so much faith in. If you want to prove my theory wrong then YOU must prove my argument wrong. In your words, or in anyone's words if you can't come up with something worth reading on your own, refute all points except "A" without rendering God Limited or Fallible. That is my challenge, it has been my challenge and i am bored with the dancing around it. I will post no more here until my challenged has been answered. Not with feelings or opinions, feelings or opinions won't change that 1+1=2. If you want to defeat a pragmatic process then you must answer it pragmatically. You cannot argue that 1+1=/=2 with feelings, you must answer it with math if you are to be taken seriously. The same rules apply.

And for the record i am not confusing myself. Maybe for the sake of argument you cannot change your perspectives and at least pretend to operate under a different set of rules but i am not as limited in mind....

Lol *zeb* i provided you with my own stand on this matter the post prior & prior to that. And so did meknow & drjames, the difference is i cite my sources and article so you can well go see both arguments on this matter. If i was just copying and pasting and trying to take someone else's words and get credit i would have just provided you with the opposing argument *zeb* and not even have cited the article, YOU GOOGLE THE WHOLE THING ON WIKEPEDIA AND PASTE IT ON HERE. Fact of the matter is you do not believe in a God, better yet you are not trying to prove his existence? and now we are heading in a mathematical route....talk about going around in circles you are really confusing yourself *zeb*.

The Bible teaches that Man was created with the ability to make moral choices and that he is responsible for those choices and we are held accountable for the choices that we make. “He who sows wickedness reaps trouble” (Proverbs 22:8a). “All hard work brings a profit,but mere talk leads only to poverty” (Proverbs 14:23). “Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you” (Romans 13:3). God has chosen to give us a free will, and He has created a moral universe in which the law of cause-and-effect is a reality. But God is God alone, and there are no “accidents” in the universe. *Zeb* you can choose to accept what the bible clearly says on this matter or you can dance around this idea that some how we christians do not have freewill and you've figured out the solution to the problem.

zeb, in the art of debate...number one is know your subject...after that it is to get your opponent on your turf.

wouldn't it be a surprise to see a pragmatist and a sophist have a discussion without so much of one or the other either daring the other to come into his closet. the battle field is just that zeb, any opposing troop leader is doomed to defeat if he allowed his rival to set the terms.

a good general will find a way to fight against the strength of his opponent. and not whine about what tactics the other employs...wouldn't you think...

if your arguments where as fool proof as you claim them to be you should be able to defend them on any turf. Christians has argued the existence of god pragmatically before, this is not new. So quit complaining and rise to the challenge.

i agree with you dere zeb, now take your own advice and stop yer whinning dere bwoi...

you still have not answered the question. In fact you seem to be coming up with every excuse not to answer the challenge. Im going to assume therefore that you cannot answer the challenge. I'll take my leave from here now.

sorry zeb, ny knowledge is limited to what is said in the bible...so long