God gave us the right to be what soever we want to be, even to choose our own life style. If person choses to be gay, that is each person's business. The same way how being a Christians is a person right if they want to be. As a Christians we have to be careful we do not set off any trend that will cause persecution of any kind, and witch hunting toward any person, base on their religious beliefs or sexual orientation.

so as a preacher you can not preach that sodomizing is an abomination before the God of Heaven.

I love the person and hate the sin as in the thief and his thievery. The liar and his lies.

I do not agree with violence against gays, Christians, athetists or anyone who is not being agressive towards someone else as to provoke self defense. but at the same time persecution is a part of this wicked world where we have just what you said in your opening statement dr. choice. people choose to persecute for what ever the reason be it religion, nationialism or what.

i get a fair amount of flack for being an outspoken christian. i feel it comes with the territory and i won't change my lifestyle because of it. i learned that people don't particularly like Christians for a lot of reasons some i can not help and have nothing to do with.

now my statement on Daniel 11:37 used to perpetrate any type of point any word manipulator wants to or a weak mind can stomach. i don't particularly like arguing with a fellow believer, except if the Spirit leads me in usually a doctrinal emphasis. i thought i made my self clear to you about what i think the statement meant. my last statement before yesterday was to leave it at he will have no desire for women. and that you can make what you choose to out of it. it did not say homosexual i agreed with you on that.

but the fact that it was emphasized to me makes a point as to his attitude toward women i believe in a sexual nature.

I won't go any farther on that matter.

but if you can somehow see my taking it as saying that the anti christ will be gay and that this may cause homophobia and gay persecution more than it already is then i don't know what to tell you.

the bible clearly gives Gods opinion about men lying with men and women with women. i am sure you know that the persecution that they endure down here will not compare with the torments of the lake of fire. i do not condone violence against gays.

Dr. james i do see the point you are making, yes we have a freewill to do whatever we please. But we cannot serve two masters, i think what has happened with the church is that there is to much compromising, instead of searching the scriptures on what the Word says we often determine the situation based on our own feelings and not what God says. It's no wonder why alot of people are confused, there is so many doctrines of what is the right way or the wrong way in the body of christ, and so many sects of christianity that it often leads many astray into other cults/beliefs. But the scriptures did talk about the Laodician church age, and the lukewarm christians, we have one foot in the world and the other in the church. For it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)

Here are some scriptures...

John 14:15 (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


1 Corinthians 6:2-5 (KJV)

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

1 Kings 14:24“And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.”

Romans 1:24-27 (KJV)

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Thetruth23.

Joshua 24:15 (KJV) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

This particular sin is deeper than you and I. It was here from antiquity. I few days ago I was in a hardware store. And two guys were walking together. One of the guy appear to be anti homosexuals. He is telling me that he is a full man and that is what he will always be. I agree with him and say. “I say the same thing” One hour later his friend was pointing gun at me from their vehicle, as we drove along the road. It does not make sense getting hurt over which hole people chose to put their marble in. For example. Truth you and miknow are two valuable people. I learned a few things from you both every now and them. I do not want to know that you get hurt, lose jobs, and so on over what people chose to do in bed. And after all it is there right to live how they want.

Just listen to how Billy Graham preached. He only preach Jesus. People already know the truth. They know what is wrong and what is right. I also find out taht when somebody appear to be anti-homosexuals, they only do that to know where you stand on the subject.

Serving God is a choice. Sin of any kind is a choice.


Proverbs 20:11 (KJV) Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

Let the righteous be righteous still.

Rev. 22:11 (KJV) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

i appreciate your concern drj. i have to admit that i am anti homosexual, but i do not hate the person. i hate the act as does God. i need my work and don't want to be harmed but if compromise is what i would need to do to avoid it then i can not do that.

i have followed Jesus too long drj. to take a step back now. i have seen him deliver the the believer who stood too many times. it reminds me of shadrac and the other two guys. i can imagine when nebuchadnezzer sent for them the commotion that took place in their section of town. when they were marched off by the popo how the talk was that "they should have just bowed and everything would have been alright." "they did not have to mean it, just bow..." imagine the buzz and the talk about what every one was gonna do next time, how quickly they would drop to their knees when the trumpet sounded etc.

this reminds me of one of my most used scriptures in the bible...1 Co. 10:13>>13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Cor 10:13 (KJV)...coupled with 2 Tim 1:7>>>7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Tim 1:6-7 (KJV)...and...9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.1 Cor 4:9 (KJV)

like i said drj. i appreciate your concern and i am no hero, but i just trust God at His word.

imagine the crowd that nebu had called to witness what would happen to those who disobied him. all the believers out there who had lost the desire to serve and obey when the decree was given and surely when these guys were taken to jail. the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. what kind of God would allow these boys to be tossed into a blast furnace? and why would He allow it.

satan is as ignorant as he is clever and he is one clever dude when it comes to tricking men...but he can not win against God....>>>6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Cor 2:6-8 (KJV)...pretty stupid huh?

but imagine the tenor out there in the crowd...now i dare say that there probably other than dan not another hebrew would have been prepared to do what these guys did in my estimate but there also could have been dozens...

no fight, going up the ramp, no yelling and screaming....if anyone didn't get it...and understands why God allowed this in the 3 boys life READ Daniel 3:28-30...

sorry drj. but i do not revile when i see a homosexual...i see a person who needs what i have...and look for opportunity to share the power that can illuminate and change them...

I am no mere judge, and i completely see where you are coming from, everyone has there choice of preferrence, and freedom to do whatever they please. However if a person that where homosexual approached me and asked me whether what he is practicing is right or wrong according to my belief? i wouldn't compromise i would only tell him the truth. There are a few gays & lesbians in my department but i do not mind what they practice because it's none of my concern.
People may fail to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but this is no problem to God. The true facts of every case are naked and open before Him. He needs no witnesses and no jury because He has personally witnessed every crime and every sin that has ever been committed. He knows all the facts (Hebrews 4:12-13). He never misrepresents a person’s case! We can be sure that God’s judgment is always according to truth.

Hebrews 4:12-13 (KJV)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Romans 1:18-20 (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"I am no mere judge, and i completely see where you are coming from, everyone has there choice of preferrence, and freedom to do whatever they please. However if a person that where homosexual approached me and asked me whether what he is practicing is right or wrong according to my belief? i wouldn't compromise i would only tell him the truth. There are a few gays & lesbians in my department but i do not mind what they practice because it's none of my concern.
People may fail to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but this is no problem to God. The true facts of every case are naked and open before Him. He needs no witnesses and no jury because He has personally witnessed every crime and every sin that has ever been committed. He knows all the facts (Hebrews 4:12-13). He never misrepresents a person’s case! We can be sure that God’s judgment is always according to truth."



If they ask me I think I should told them the truth. But, I am not going to go telling them that they are wrong all on my own. I am not going to behave like God gave me a mandate over them. If I am putting my marble in the worng hole and some self righteous person came along, and is telling me to take it out.

I do not know what is going to happen between me and him. My wife and I went to watch a movie and we went into the wrong place. We saw two men start to work each other over and we ran. ahahahahahahahah

What those sodomites are doing is not my buisness. It is not my undoing. I lose a lot of jobs over being outspoken. One job as a diesel tech. In 4 weeks I made $4500.10 cents, and get fired over where I think people should put their marbles.

You cannot change them. what they do sweet them to the point where some of them went out of their mind, with sweetness. ahahaaahahahahahahahhaahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have to interject that this is the first time that I have ever witnessed three people talk on religion disagree and are still civil and respectful toward one another.

The world is coming to an end as I know it....

carry on gentlemen.....

I go to prison ministry once a month. three bays of men about 60 in each. i enter and take a seat at one of the table in the midst of conversations and tv watching and all. soon they begin to trickle over and talk. usually in 10 minutes i have 8 to 10 with bibles ready to study the bible.

i and not there to preach that they a criminals and have done something illegal. i am there to be lead of the Spirit to teach a word of encouragement to those who are saved and the gospel to those who are not.

i remember one group telling me about a preacher who thinks he is a big shot and looks down on almost everybody except those he wants to flatter. he went in once and began to scream "bible study", "bible study" "everybody come to bible study"...no one moved so he went over to the tv where about 15 or 20 were standing looking up at the set...he reached up and turned it off.

immediately one of the prisoners came up to him and told him that if he were to come to his house, that he would not try and take it over but respect it and ask for what he needed. he then told him that this cell was his house and he did not appreciate him trying to take it over and that he would like for him to turn the tv back on before something happened.

he turned it back on and went and pressed the button for the guard to let him out. he never went back again.

remember in the bible about knowing how to go in and come out again....?

i have worked with homosexuals before and have protected them from persecution and abuse...

about anti christ demeanor, we believers know that he will be the personification of evil. a cleaver trickster powered by satan the dragon. he will ignore women it seems for some reason, maybe not sexual orientation. Christ did not have a problem with women, He dealt with them from his mom Mary not understanding who He was and for what He came to do, to mary and martha who loved and trusted Him and Mary magnalene who quite possibly had a crush on Him as well as a desire to serve Him. During his 33 years I am sure some of the wayward women in the village knew His rep and probably tried to tempt Him.

Loose girls always 'shoot' at boys who do not give them play.

not being a chauvanist here but most women will test their powers over men rather than seeking to strengthen them. When they find out how weak and vunerable they are they castrate them just because they can (not all but most). men who do not recognize this end up on the wrong side of women and viewing them in the wrong ways.

one of the only time i heard loudness between my mom and dad was once when she was whipping my nephew and i. we were a little noisy one evening after she got home from work and she commensed to beating us. she went longer than usual and was pretty loud in doing so. so much so until my dad stuck his head in the door and asked her what happened. she stopped beating us and began screaming at him that he was wrong for taking up for us and then began threatening him.

i knew something was not right so as my dad left the room she followed screaming and crying. i had never seen my mom cry (i was about 8 or 9). he slowly retreated through the kitchen and went out the door. she followed screaming, he had said nothing that i could hear since he asked her what was wrong. as he kept walking she stood outside the back kitchen door and kept screaming for him to come back and crying.

he went to his shop up at the barn and stayed until pretty late that night. she finally stopped and came back in the kitchen and sat down at the table as just sat for a long time. my nephew and i went back to the room and waited because during a whipping you had to stay until she said it was done. we sat still and did not even turn on the tv. can't remember if we ate that night but i learned a great lesson about dealing with women from my dad.

later on when i thought about it i think it must have been menopause, she was about 40.

i never deal with women emotionally. when they become emotional, i get stronger in order to help and not get caught up in it.

That preacher boy was mad miknow. He was lucky he never get a belting before he came out of there. However, concerning homosexuals, many people get blamed that they are homosexuals and the person is not. One of my member was dubbed a homo. He was a good man, one of the best preacher I know. However, he has some lady attitude and that is all there was. The people never stop untill they make him ran and leave the country. No one could prove that he was what they say he was, every body said that they "hear so"

i know men who have womanish ways also. i try not to judge on that only. i know some who were raised by women only and they took on the ways of those who they were around most.

in todays world things are topsy turvy. i felt sick when i heard about the downlow brothers thing. as i have stated the church is losing the battle against sin hurridly. judgement can not be far off with sin becoming not only open and accepted but matter of factly common. so much until it does not bother even church folk anymore.

i have heard that there are churches here in norff louisiana where cross dressers play piano and sing in drag and the preacher says nothing. does not ever preach against it. there are homosexual preachers, down low preachers, lesbians all comfortablly in churches. this ought not to be so. I don't mean they should not be allowed but the power of the gospel ought to change them or make them change their church. sin can not be tolerated and you don't fight it in church with guns and clubs but with the Word of God.

just like adultry should make a whore monger uncomfortable so should the preaching of the gospel convict those who are lascivious.

i did some substitute teaching at some of the alternative schools in our area. i remember one day a young girl yell across the room and ask a boy if he still gave other boys 'blow jobs'....he crooked his neck and told her in a 'sweet voice' that he did not do that any more without a hint of shame.

So Bro miknow. you want to wake them up out of there bed of fethers? That is the way I was, when I was younger. Some of them run of to the toilet when I was preaching. I beat them up, but paid for it in toilet papers. ahahahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I agree, a while back i visited a baptist church which my friend attended at the time. And here came a guy who was dressed-up in tight jeans, and a tight shirt he was apparently gay, i asked my cousin he said everybody knew in the church, but nobody said anything about it. Man back home you see that kind of stuff irregardless of ones belief you'll get beat up from whoever that sees you practicing such stuff. I don't judge but man, most churches out here in the U.S in general are really weak in truth & in spirit...to much compromising, the bible has become just a history book, God is dead rather than alive, mega churches everywhere, look at our youth, you can't even reach out to them anymore. The devil doesn't want the world, he knows the world is already lost he wants the church, he will do everything in his power to keep us compromising and perverting the truth.

Lol good one...hahaha

Truth23!

Once again I have to refer back to Billy Graham preaching. This man just go out there and preach Jesus, and the chain fall off people. Telling people how to live moral is not going to save them. It will only make them angry, because they have no power to live up to that standard of holiness that the church (was) and are selling them. The preachers are worst in behaviors than most people, you saw that on TV.

To change people, you have to present Jesus to them. Tell them what Jesus can do for them. Sell them Jesus. Point them to Jesus. Then Jesus will change their lives and give them the power to live holy.

Jesus will make you perfect in his own times.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, He calling us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, He will perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

Perfection will not come by human magnetism.


Zech. 4:6 (KJV)
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

It is by his grace.


Zech. 4:7 (KJV)
Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.


Ephes. 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephes. 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It Is Not By Sabbaths keeping.

Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


You Must Seek This Thing By Faith.


Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

sort of like paul huh?

drj.

i don't know how many sermons i have preached, but not one had a subject that included homosexuality. not one.

what we are talking about here is that you precieved that what i said about the anti christ in Daniel 11:37 could set off persecution against gays. i don't think tha it the case. i also made the point that as a minister of the gospel i will not compromise the gospel or what ever else the Holy Spirit will direct me to speak on.

that may be you way of ministering but not mine. i have given you time and time again my stance on homosexuality and those that commit it.

do you ever mention homosexuality in a sermon?

your stance it seems is to compromise, i will teach the truth of the word as i am lead.

i think drj. and i agree on the subject, he just thinks my method of dealing with it needs honing...

Miknow! I never preach a full sermon on the subject in question. However, I mention it here and there.
However, I soon learned that the more people mess with do do is the stinker it get. The more you dig up bm, is the nastier it look. It is best to let some tree fall down on it own. Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. lordddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

now that clears the matter....i understand how you minister...

miknow!

No amount of preaching, rebuking, counseling and cursing out can free some people from certain sins. They are bound by certain spirits. As you go on with the lord you will begin to literally see the spirits attaches themselves on certain people. Some people, you will see like a turtle fastening on their sex organs. Others who are sick from demonic spirit and bondage spirits. The spirits fastening on themselves to the people. You have to rebuke the spirits. Some you have to go home and went on a fasting and praying to free them. Beating upon them will never let them stop sinning. That is the reason why I do not even bother to mention certain sins when I am preaching because it will not help. If you mis what I am saying here, I am afraid your ministry could be falter for years to come.

The things we need to worry about, is the demonic spirits in the churches that are pretending to be the holy ghost and are taking possession of the people. One girl in one of our church was so call slain in the spirit. When her deacons came to take her up off the ground, she bite one of them one inch beside his balls ( testes). One young boy I know when he got so-call fill with the spirit he jump through the church window and ran away. So call spirit baptism. That is why we cannot change the world. We are using demons to drive out demons. Just look at some of our spirit filled people who spoke in tongues and translated. When they go to foreign country they cannot do a thing. Why not? Because what they got is fake, it is not the real thing. It work at home but cannot work on the battle field?

I don't know what kind of God these people would be serving if he couldn't even deliver them from the simplest tasks. So pretty much are you making the assumption that you can be what you want to be in Christ and still obtain the Kingdom? I agree on the concept of not persecuting others based on their sexual orientation its something that i do not practice and certainly not found in the bible, but i do not compromise when it comes to the Word of God. Furthermore we are no mere judges to decide what is right and wrong the way someone leads their life, i can care less of what someone does behind closed doors, God will Judge them accordingly, but the Word is very clear on these matters. Notice when Jesus was performing all those miracles crowds swarned in to hear him and heal them, as soon as he started speaking the truth on important matters they started leaving like flies...

"What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."-B. Russell-

hmmm

I have read most of this thread, not all but most. I will just say this for now.

You worship a God who is all knowing and all powerful. Though you say he gives you free will, the right to choose, he is all knowing, therefore he already knows what decision you will make. To say he does not know what choices you will make puts limits on his power, and an all powerful being cannot have limits. Since he already knows what choices you will make, even before you are born, it is safe to say that your fate is predetermined, you have already been judged/juryed/and executed so to speak.

If all of that is true, and to deny any of it is to limit the power of god, then you do not have free will. You have the illusion of free will. You are like puppets who cannot see your strings so you think you must be the one moving them. I find it arrogant to think that in the face of an all knowing all powerful being humans should still believe that they are the deciders of their fate.

So if homosexuality is a choice then it is a choice that God already knows the person will make. In fact God will make the person knowing full well that he will make this choice. After making this person who he knows will make this choice he will condemn this person. Where is the logic in that. You say it is not your place to judge but you are passing judgment. In this thread all of you have made judgments. MeKnow has judged that it is wrong for a crossdresser to play the piano in the church among other things, Truth23 says he doesn't judge BUT...then he goes on with the judgment he doesn't make lol. But these are souls made time out of mind ago in the mind of an All Knowing Being and the lives they lead he knew they would lead and still he made them. Do you know why? Do you think you know why? Do you pretend to know why (some of you do)?

Now i do not believe homosexuality is a choice, to say the least though human sexuality is only as complicated as we make it. But this is your idea that it is a choice matched up against your idea in an all powerful all knowing God.