Bismillaah Salaam, All. Is it just me? Do I detect a need to open / include, in a post, street / gutter language ? Should not we "respect" one another, or is that "square"nowadays? What diabolical plan is this? Salaam. OriginalBM


I don't remember starting such a thread as this one. The above quote is - I think - from another thread / post. Salaam. OriginalBM


Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Rahiim Salaam, All. In answer to "Who Created Us" Allaah, The Eternal, The Fashioner, The Honourer, The Forgiver, The Dominant, says in HIS, Holy Quran, surah 51, verse 56, that HE, created jinns, and men so that they may serve HIM.

Allaah, All Glory Be To HIM, is THE {ONE} GOD, which means that HE, Alone is, The Creator, The Holy, The Guardian Of Faith, The Source Of Peace, The Protector, The Unconquerable.

Salaam. OriginalBM

JESUS

niceone.gifi could say somthing really corny like

"I hope you find the answer to your questions and find peace with it"

but that doesn't really answer your question does it?

can i ask what you mean by 'all history is theory unless it comes direct from the source to you.'?

so, once you get 'it' from the 'source',is 'it'no longer theory? OK then; those people who experienced the first FA Cup final, are probably dead, so is our knowledge of their experience theory? -seeing as all the officials, players and crowd are dead?

Maybe i'm not xpressing myself as well as i'd like to...what im trying to say is that i think u have a narrow definition of history. history is not just about certain events that happened in the past, but history is about people's lives...therefore there is nothing theoretical about it - unless you can actually prove -(tangible evidence) - their theory as incorrect, or their conclusion as incorrect. people can witness, or experience the same, situation/environment, but come up with different conclusions...in other words, their perception are different.

Listen, u have a brilliant mind, but any reasons you can give about a religious book can be thrown right back at you, simply because a part of your knowledge (about the origins of mankind) will be from books...different interpretations and perceptions..

our origins are not as important as our perception of ourselves today, or our future...

Ask yourself, where are we going? and what am i doing about it?

Selah!

I know this is off the topic but i think it will be philosophically interesting.

Can you please answer my genuine questions?
I am not intenting to offend so please dont do me(verbal version)of how muslims did Malcom x
I am studying A-level Religious studies and i would like to be enlightened with more knowledge.

Why isnt the quran in chronologically order? not being in order creates confusionion.God is not the author of confusion.
The bible is in chronilogically order.
Unlike the bible the quran doesnt have any eye witness accounts to be a testimony of truth.
Muslims say that the quran was reavelled to mohammad only but yet similar account occurred in the bible centuries ago. How can Mohammad who is of a fact illiterate able to right down the words of god.
Muslims claim that allah is god but yet pagens in mecca b4 mohammad worshipped a man made idol called allah who used to dwell within the carba.

If Christ was a mere man (beleived by muslims and others),then why does the quran call him Esua(i think i hv spelt it wrong but i will rectify that)which means saviour of the world.

Also in the quran mohammead himself self say that if any1 gets confused then they are to ask theJews and the Christian that were amounst him at the time wheb he was alive.He had Christian friends But the quran teaches ANY1 WHO ISNT A MUSLIM IS AN ENEMY WHO NEEDS TO BE KILLED.tHE PEOPLE SAYS LOVE UR ENEMIES,

and If any1 thinks that what i have written is a lie then i encourage you to study religion and the origins of it for yourself. Find out what iraqi/palestinian people did b4 Mohammad. The bible already tells you how the jews lived b4 Christ. Also read the Bible and quran from beginning to end.

God Bless.
Now unto him that is able to keep us from fallinf and to present us faultless b4 him be glory and majesty,dominion and power both now and forever amen

Judge the fruits not the roots[align=center][/align]
In our everyday experience, just about everything seems to have a beginning. In fact, the laws of science show that even things which look the same through our lifetime, like the sun and other stars, are running down. The sun is using up its fuel at millions of tons each second. Since, therefore, it cannot last forever, it had to have a beginning. The same can be shown to be true for the entire universe.

So when Christians claim that the God of the Bible created the entire universe, some will ask what seems a logical question, namely ‘Where did God come from?’

The Bible makes it clear in many places that God is outside of time. He is eternal, with no beginning or end — He is infinite! He also knows all things, being infinitely intelligent.1

Is this logical? Can modern science allow for such a notion? And how could you recognize the evidence for an intelligent Creator?

The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Psalm 14:1).

The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of God's existence are:

The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.

The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are:

The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.

The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.

The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that "verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth."

Matthew G. Easton

How to recognize intelligence

Scientists get excited about finding stone tools in a cave because these speak of intelligence — a tool maker. They could not have designed themselves. Neither would anyone believe that the carved Presidents’ heads on Mt. Rushmore were the product of millions of years of chance erosion. We can recognize design — the evidence of the outworkings of intelligence — in the man-made objects all around us.

Similarly, in William Paley’s famous argument, a watch implies a watchmaker.2 Today, however, a large proportion of people, including many leading scientists, believe that all plants and animals, including the incredibly complex brains of the people who make watches, motor cars, etc., were not designed by an intelligent God but rather came from an unintelligent evolutionary process. But is this a defensible position?

Design in living things

Molecular biologist Dr. Michael Denton, writing as an agnostic, concluded:

‘Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [twentieth century technology appears] clumsy. . . . It would be an illusion to think that what we are aware of at present is any more than a fraction of the full extent of biological design. In practically every field of fundamental biological research ever-increasing levels of design and complexity are being revealed at an ever-accelerating rate.’3

The world-renowned crusader for Darwinism and atheism, Prof. Richard Dawkins, states:

‘We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully “designed� to have come into existence by chance.’4

Thus, even the most ardent atheist concedes that design is all around us. To a Christian, the design we see all around us is totally consistent with the Bible’s explanation that God created all.

However, evolutionists like Dawkins reject the idea of a Designer. He comments (emphasis added):


‘All appearance to the contrary, the only watchmaker in nature is the blind forces of physics, albeit deployed in a very special way. A true watchmaker has foresight: he designs his cogs and springs, and plans their interconnections, with future purpose in his mind’s eye. Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind. . . . It has no mind . . . . It does not plan for the future . . . it is the blind watchmaker.’5

Selection and design

Life is built on information, contained in that molecule of heredity, DNA. Dawkins believes that natural selection6 and mutations (blind, purposeless copying mistakes in this DNA) together provide the mechanism for producing the vast amounts of information responsible for the design in living things.7

Natural selection is a logical process that can be observed. However, selection can only operate on the information already contained in genes — it does not produce new information.8 Actually, this is consistent with the Bible’s account of origins; God created distinct kinds of animals and plants, each to reproduce after its own kind.


One can observe great variation in a kind,and see the results of natural selection. For instance, dingoes, wolves and coyotes have developed over time as a result of natural selection operating on the information in the genes of the wolf/dog kind.

But no new information was produced — these varieties have resulted from rearrangement, and sorting out, of the information in the original dog kind. One kind has never been observed to change into a totally different kind with new information that previously did not exist!

Without a way to increase information, natural selection will not work as a mechanism for evolution. Evolutionists agree with this, but they believe that mutations somehow provide the new information for natural selection to act upon.



Can mutations produce new information?

Actually, it is now clear that the answer is no! Dr. Lee Spetner, a highly qualified scientist who taught information and communication theory at Johns Hopkins University, makes this abundantly clear in his recent book:

‘In this chapter I’ll bring several examples of evolution, [i.e., instances alleged to be examples of evolution] particularly mutations, and show that information is not increased . . . But in all the reading I’ve done in the life-sciences literature, I’ve never found a mutation that added information.’9

‘All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it.’10

‘The NDT [neo-Darwinian theory] is supposed to explain how the information of life has been built up by evolution. The essential biological difference between a human and a bacterium is in the information they contain. All other biological differences follow from that. The human genome has much more information than does the bacterial genome. Information cannot be built up by mutations that lose it. A business can’t make money by losing it a little at a time.’11

Evolutionary scientists have no way around the conclusions that many scientists, including Dr. Spetner, have come to. Mutations do not work as a mechanism to fuel the evolutionary process.

More problems!

Scientists have found that within the cell, there are thousands of what can be called ‘biochemical machines’. All of their parts have to be in place simultaneously or the cell can’t function. Things which were thought to be simple mechanisms, such as being able to sense light and turn it into electrical impulses, are in fact highly complicated.

Since life is built on these ‘machines’, the idea that natural processes could have made a living system is untenable. Biochemist Dr. Michael Behe uses the term ‘irreducible complexity’ in describing such biochemical ‘machines’.

‘. . . systems of horrendous, irreducible complexity inhabit the cell. The resulting realization that life was designed by an intelligence is a shock to us in the twentieth century who have gotten used to thinking of life as the result of simple natural laws. But other centuries have had their shocks, and there is no reason to suppose that we should escape them.’12

Richard Dawkins recognizes this problem of needing ‘machinery’ to start with when he states:


‘The theory of the blind watchmaker is extremely powerful given that we are allowed to assume replication and hence cumulative selection. But if replication needs complex machinery, since the only way we know for complex machinery ultimately to come into existence is cumulative selection, we have a problem.’13

A problem indeed! The more we look into the workings of life, the more complicated it gets, and the more we see that life could not arise by itself. Not only is a source of information needed, but the complex ‘machines’ of the chemistry of life need to be in existence right from the start!

A greater problem still!


Some still try to insist that the machinery of the first cell could have arisen by pure chance. For instance, they say, by randomly drawing alphabet letters in sequence from a hat, sometimes you will get a simple word like ‘BAT’.14 So given long time periods, why couldn’t even more complex information arise by chance?

However, what would the word ‘BAT’ mean to a German or Chinese speaker? The point is that an order of letters is meaningless unless there is a language convention and a translation system in place which makes it meaningful!

In a cell, there is such a system (other molecules) that makes the order on the DNA meaningful. DNA without the language/translation system is meaningless, and these systems without the DNA wouldn’t work either.

The other complication is that the translation machinery which reads the order of the ‘letters’ in the DNA is itself specified by the DNA! This is another one of those ‘machines’ that needs to be fully-formed or life won’t work.

Can information arise from non-information?

Dr. Werner Gitt, Director and Professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, makes it clear that one of the things we know absolutely for sure from science, is that information cannot arise from disorder by chance. It always takes (greater) information to produce information, and ultimately information is the result of intelligence:

‘A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required.’15

‘There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.’16

What is the source of the information?


We can therefore deduce that the huge amount of information in living things must originally have come from an intelligence, which had to have been far superior to ours, as scientists are revealing every day. But then, some will say that such a source would have to be caused by something with even greater information/intelligence.

However, if they reason like this, one could ask where this greater information/intelligence came from? And then where did that one come from … one could extrapolate to infinity, for ever, unless …

Unless there was a source of infinite intelligence, beyond our finite understanding. But isn’t this what the Bible indicates when we read, ‘In the beginning God …’? The God of the Bible is an infinite being not bound by limitations of time, space, knowledge, or anything else.


So which is the logically defensible position? — that matter eternally existed (or came into existence by itself for no reason), and then by itself arranged itself into information systems against everything observed in real science? Or that a being with infinite intelligence,17 created information systems for life to exist, agreeing with real science?

The answer seems obvious, so why don’t all intelligent scientists accept this? Michael Behe answers:

‘Many people, including many important and well-respected scientists, just don’t want there to be anything beyond nature. They don’t want a supernatural being to affect nature, no matter how brief or constructive the interaction may have been. In other words … they bring an a priori philosophical commitment to their science that restricts what kinds of explanations they will accept about the physical world. Sometimes this leads to rather odd behavior.’18

The crux of the matter is this: If one accepts there is a God who created us, then that God also owns us. He thus has a right to set the rules by which we must live. In the Bible, He has revealed to us that we are in rebellion against our Creator. Because of this rebellion called sin, our physical bodies are sentenced to death — but we will live on, either with God, or without Him in a place of judgment.

But the good news is that our Creator provided, through the cross of Jesus Christ, a means of deliverance for our sin of rebellion, so that those who come to Him in faith, in repentance for their sin, can receive the forgiveness of a Holy God and spend forever with their Lord.

[Watch The HOPE on-line (streaming video)]


So who created God?

By definition, an infinite, eternal being has always existed — no one created God. He is the self-existing one — the great ‘I am’ of the Bible.19 He is outside of time — in fact, He created time.

You might say, ‘But that means I have to accept this by faith, as I can’t understand it.’

We read in the book of Hebrews, ‘But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him’ (Hebrews 11:6).

But this is not blind faith, as some think. In fact, the evolutionists who deny God have a blind faith — they have to believe something that is against real science — namely, that information can arise from disorder by chance.

Can you believe in the existence of something that you cannot see? Have you ever seen your own brain? We all believe in many things that we have never seen. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by faith we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence.

Do you know that you have a receiver? Prior to becoming a child of God, your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm.

Learn more about God and his plan for your life

Adapted from author Ray Comfort



See these information sources for evidence of God and the accuracy of His Word...


The Christian faith is not a blind faith — it is a logically defensible faith. This is why the Bible makes it clear that anyone who does not believe in God is without excuse:

‘For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse’ (Romans 1:20).

Lexi

You said the existance of God is taken for granted in the bible ? The very reason the bible was written was because he that should be taken for granted as just a natural part to our psyche, was somehow erased from it. Ever thought of that ?

It was written because men began to believe as the devil as said, you shall becomes as wise as the god's themselves ?.

I believe in this present day we are seeing what the word of deception grow to fruitionin man. Man believes he as nothing to answer to but himself. He makes up his own idea's of how things came to be and runs with that thought, that belief. Yet it is unproven and can never be proved.

I tell you what can be proved though, the bible can be proved ? I say this over and over again in the forums, I feel like Noah telling the people of the anti duluvian age, Its going to rain. Same whole message every day, Noah told the people its going to rain, but the people never ever knew what rain was, because in those days a mist came up from the earth and watered the ground, no water ever fell from the heavens to the ground.

So i believe men in that time spoke just like you Lexi, sounding all smart about things unproven. Shut it Noah they must have said, always going on about your rain.

It rained though, and who had prepared for that day ?.

Bible said so in those days so it will be in the last.

I directed my last post at the wrong person, forgive me lexi.. although I have answered you indirectly i kind of see where your coming from.



Black matta

What instrument did they use to determine that time did not have a beginning and when was that instrument made ?

AFRONESIA wrote: [align=left]Understanding The Creation Of The Universe
Stephen Knapp





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[align=justify]
Why should we understand how the universe was created? Because it gives us a clearer understanding of where we have come from, where we are going, who and what we are, and what our purpose is here. Once you consider that there is a purpose to life, the search for life's origins may very well lead you into a different direction than simply trying to find an explanation for a mechanical or chemical process of creation. [/align]
We are going to take a look at a different approach to the origin of the universe, the Vedic approach. The difference between most scientists and the Vedic approach is that the Vedic system accepts a descending channel of knowledge coming from previous authorities. But scientists accept no prior authority, except for other scientists, and try to discover the mysteries of the universe through their own perceptions by various instruments, experiments, and the use of mathematical formulas to try to verify their theories. This is called the ascending process. However, if one should diligently take this process to its ultimate conclusion, one will reach the same line of thought as the descending method.

In part, both of these theories are corroborated in the Vedic texts because it is described that the Supreme Creator produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy. Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created."

Even if something like the BIG BANG did occur without the supervision of a higher authority , what you would really end up having is a universe filled with dust. Why would such solid planets, suns, stars, and galaxies form out of this floating dust? And there certainly has been no scientific explanation why there is consciousness that inhabits the millions of species of beings. How could a BIG BANG bring about consciousness? From where did it come? These things are not explained by science. So it is not unreasonable to consider other theories about how this universe came into being, and how there was a development of so many species of life that have consciousness.

The whole idea of a random reorganisation of matter directly opposes the second law of thermodynamics. This law states that as time goes on, there is an increase in entropy, which is an increase in the state of random disorder or deterioration. This means that without a higher intelligence to intercede in the steady disorganisation of elements, the universe is in a constant state of gradual decline. This is directly opposite to the idea that matter could organise itself into increasingly complex systems of stars, planets, and galaxies, or even cells, bodies, and various species. So such an organisation of matter after a BIG BANG could never have taken place, nor could a BIG BANG have occurred.

How could there have been a single particle of unlimited depth and weight floating around in the void universe waiting to explode? Someone had to have put it there. And how could it have exploded into unlimited atoms that formed the universe? Such theories are simply more scientific myths. So how else could the universe have been formed and from where does consciousness come? First of all, consciousness does not come from a combination of chemicals. Consciousness is a non-material energy. Thus, consciousness exists before, during, and after the material creation. This means that the origin of the material cosmos and all life within it must also be consciousness, a Supreme Consciousness from whom come all other forms of consciousness that take up residence in the varieties of material bodies or species found in this material creation. This origin must also have intelligence and the ability to design in order to make the various combinations of elements come together to form even the simplest of cells.

According to Vedic science , as the Supreme Creator creates the cosmos, the creative potency descends among other beings who are created, called demigods in the Vedic system, to assist the Supreme in manifesting the material worlds. So, the Supreme expands Himself and also creates positions within the material cosmos which are taken by co-creators or demigods who assist in creating and maintaining the material manifestation.
They also help distribute the spiritual knowledge among all others. This is the descending process of acquiring knowledge by which we understand the mysteries of life. It is the information provided by the Supreme Creator that descends through the ancient sages and scriptures, and His pure representatives. In this way, we can learn about the universe and its purpose rather than trying to understand it only by analyzing minute cells and parts of the cosmos, the way of modern science.

The reason why scientists will never find the cause of the universe by only using this method is that the original cause of the creation exists OUTSIDE the universe. It is like analysing the elements within a house to find its cause when the designer lives somewhere else outside the house. Thus, until the scientists can reach the Creator through spiritual understanding, examining the universe to find its cause or source is like a maze that has no end.

Our premise, on the other hand, is that all life comes from God. Almost every religion accepts this. Unfortunately, the problem is that most religions and traditions provide only a short and unscientific story or allegory of the universal creation. However, the Vedic literature, such as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, explains that the universal creation is but an expansion or a development from the original spiritual elements. These exist prior to, during, and after the material creation. By understanding the Supreme Creator and the spiritual nature, the cause of the material manifestation can be understood. Not the other way around.

The universe started in a state of perfect simplicity. The design of this universe comes from that dimension of ultimate cause and simplicity, which is that of the spiritual. This is beyond the material strata and where the cause of the universe and the seed of its manifestation exist. The Vedic literature points the way to this region and presents the blueprints of the universe and all life within.

The energies of matter and spirit are energies that vibrate at different frequencies and manifest on diverse levels. However, they both originate from the same source, which is consciousness, the pure consciousness of the Supreme Being. Yet, the spiritual stratum is eternal while the material is temporary. Thus, the material plane is subservient to, and pervaded by, the unlimited spiritual energy. It is this spiritual energy which is the foundation of the material realm and interacts with it in all phases, although unbeknownst to those who are spiritually unaware. To know the universe is to know that each atom is but a reflection of the Supreme Creator's potency.

The Vedic literature explains how the material elements are created, and how they make systems and arrangements of forms from planets to various species of life. It describes how the material energy is directed and maintained to prevent it from sliding into deterioration, and how it is finally destroyed or wrapped up to merge back into the spiritual atmosphere.
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@teddy
Allah is a title not a name, at best it is the equivalent meaning to the Hebrew word Elohim. And I know some may come in arguing about plurality and what not, but it does have the same meaning.

They say Moses called on Allah, or Hebrew (Elohim). However Moses and the prophets awaited the name also and not the title of God. Hence the church as the revelation of the name of God.

If you read the book of Genesis you will see a passage that goes "Then began men to call on the name of the Lord" Genesis Chpt 4.

So the name of the Lord was lost to men, other passages of old testament will show that God's name became so revered, they lost the name of God altogether and then we see YHWH or the tetragrammaton the unpronouncible name of God.

So its all good and well Muslims shouting Allah and Jews shouting ELshaddai all day long. To get up close and personal you have to know and acknowledge the name of God.

For instance its lke you telling me your name, but each time I see you, I call you man.. Hey man do this. or man that. Never calling you by your name. So all the arguments you se going on, is foolishness, the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy ghost is the puzzle that we must all solve.

Hope you work it out in your journey.

Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Rahiim Salaam, All. In answer to "Who Created Us" Allaah, The Eternal, The Fashioner, The Honourer, The Forgiver, The Dominant, says in HIS, Holy Quran, surah 51, verse 56, that HE, created jinns, and men so that they may serve HIM.

Allaah, All Glory Be To HIM, translated is THE {ONE}GOD, which means that HE, Alone is, The Creator, The Holy, The Guardian Of Faith, The Source Of Peace, The Protector, The Unconquerable.

Plenty of good questions have been asked on this thread, and some are demanding straight answers, but not from the Scriptures. Well, Allaah, The High Exalted, was present at the creation, which is why we must value HIS, commentary. HE, has even challenged the scientist to explore the heavens [giving them permission to do so] and they have returned some answers, maybe not satisfactory to all.

Some discoveries by medical professionals, were prompted by Scriptural records, or AL-Quraan, [how a child is formed in the womb of the mother] from 1400+ years ago. And science continues to find accuracies, in AL-Qur'aan, so why not use its authority.

The Holy Qur'aan, was brought to The Prophet Muhammad, PBUH,over a period of twenty-three years, according to Islamic tradition. It is not a book of many parables, as is the Bible. It contains a few parables, but is a plain, warner.

It [AL-Qur'aan]contains many verses that [repeat]are similar in the pointthat isbeing made. They spread throughout The Book, as Allaah, The Wise, instructs us, so that we can understand and learn from them [verses]. Islamic tradi