What Does the Holy Qur'an say about SINCERE Christians? - Page 3

chinkkie · (#51 (**permalink**))

@saint..... if you think the bible is the word.... then why do you interpret the text and pick and chose verses as you feel, instead of as it is stated...... then you laugh at what is written in your own religious book.........anyhow that is very christion like of you.

@just_a_voice......... you argue "context".... however god and jesus are still different and therefore not the same and the bible specifically shows this.

on the salvation points the bible also offers an opposing view:

Before Jesus spoke these words, he said; "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you." (John 14:2). The above explicit statement confirms that Jesus was going to prepare "a" mansion and not "all" the mansions in "my Father's house". Obviously, the prophets that came before him and the one to come after, were to prepare the other mansions for their respective followers. The prophet that came after Jesus had evidently shown the current "way" to a modern mansion in the kingdom of heaven.

Besides; the verse clearly states; Jesus was the "WAY" to a mansion. It is a folly to believe that Jesus (or any prophet) was the "DESTINATION".
[*]Jesus said; "I am the door" to find the pasture. (Jn.10:9). [*]A sheep that walks through the "door" will find the pasture. [*]A sheep that circles around the "door" will never find the pasture.
One who crosses over the "way" will reach the mansion. Anyone that stops on the "way" and believes the "way" to be the end of his/her journey, will be out in the open without any shelter and a roof.

Jesus said; "Not every one that says to me; `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven." (Mt.7:21).
ALSO ON THE WORD POINT:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
really means....
In the beginning was the `spoken word, command', and the `spoken word, command' was with God, and the `spoken word, command' was Divine.

because.........

this LITERAL translation is not only logical but it coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." "And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light." And also.... more logically.. how can the word (jesus) BE god and be WITH god at the same time, it would have to be one or the other.

Justavoice · (#52 (**permalink**))

@chinkkie

I believe I have given you enough to consider, argument done.

Read Isaiah, understand that it was a Jew, who believed in monotheism that said the Son to come would be called Emmanuel (God with us).

Now if you want to start splitting them in your own mind and saying there is god and Jesus, do so if you want. The bible is not to be read how you are reading it.

Jesus asked Peter, "Who do men say that I am" Peter began tell Jesus what popular oppinion, outside of them were saying, some say you are this Lord, some say you are that.

Jesus then asked, Who do you say that I am

Peter said "I say that thou art the Christ the Son ofthe living God".

Now hear Jesus

Peter, son of Jonas, "Flesh and blood as not revealed this unto you, but my Father which is in heaven"

You are reading the bible and it seems becoming confused at what you read, trying with your own intellect to decipher a mystery ordained of God without asking God. You lack what is needed to understand what is being said and is now stubbornly refusing to consider what is placed before you.

Rightly though the bible says "No man can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit".

For the Holy Ghost shall lead us into all truth.

Peace.

Split God and Jesus if you wish...

let me throw this your way, find in the bible a place where the bible mentions an Eternal Son ?

and then we'll talk some more ?

bet you its not there niceone.gif

chinkkie · (#53 (**permalink**))

@justavoice...........

it is you that is in confusion...... i have given you numerous verses that state jesus is not and cannot be god....... however you are still in denial......... and still believe that which the bible does not state...... and which you cannot prove with or without the bible.... and this is ignoring the fact that the bible cannot be used as primary evidence.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. They both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the signs clear for them, then see how they are deluded!" The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah (5):75.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3.
Notice the above words of the Bible: "YOU the ONLY true God." Most Christians always manage to see a hidden abstract meaning for the verses of the Bible. Even when they read the above verse they always manage to understand something totally different than that which they are reading. They always interpret the word "you" to be "we," and thus, understand the above verse to say "WE the only true god." Jesus (pbuh) is obviously talking to a distinctly different entity than himself and telling that entity that He ALONE is the only true God. Is Jesus (pbuh) incapable of saying "I the only true God" or "We the only true God" if that is what he meant? Can we see the difference?
Mr. Tom Harpur says in the preface to his book: "The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title "Son of God" in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus.....this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself." For Christ's Sake, pp. xii.

Justavoice · (#54 (**permalink**))

"And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3.

@Chinkkie

Keep reading bruh, you haven't phased me once yet

See the verse you just mentions try contrasting that with this verse:

John 5: 39 - 43

[suP]39[/suP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[suP]40[/suP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[suP]41[/suP]I receive not honour from men.
[suP]42[/suP]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[suP]43[/suP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

As Mohammed come in the name of the Father @Chinkkie ? but you recieve him right and his so called last Testament but cannot recieve Jesus for who he says he his.

Read the scripture you have posted, who would they know the "Only true God" and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Who does Jesus say to the Jews the scriptures testify of ?

He said they speak of him.

Now mind you, at this point there was no New Testament only Old Testament, yet Jesus said these scriptures spoke of him ??? Read the old testament and show me a place where the bible calls him by name ?

And if it doesn't then maybe you'll start to understand what I am telling you.

For instance read Malachi 3 verse 1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

So here we see two things, promised, a messenger coming to prepare the way before whom ? well it says before me: who is me ? The LORD and where will he suddenly show up ? in his temple.

Where did Jesus first show up in the gospel account ?

12 years old, in the temple amongst the doctors and scribes and astounded them.

suddenly i might say too...

so who is the messenger of the covenant whom the people delighted in:

Lets see what Jesus says of John the baptist:

Luke 7

[suP]27[/suP]This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
[suP]28[/suP]For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Ok, so if it is written that this prophet would be sent before his face, I take it Jesus you are speaking of Malachi and if you are speaking of Malachi then.. then Jesus the one sent before thee was to introduce according to Malachi .. THE LORD.

So understand that God is subtle about what he does Chinkkie, remember Satan can influence men, Jesus was not about just come out and say I am God. Satan would influence men to find every passage of scripture which says this and change it.

So Jesus went about very wisely dropping hint of his true identity, so that men were unable even if they were influenced by devils to change what God would have us to know. He said he would reveal these things not to the wise and prudent but to the babe.

Come at God with your worldly wise wisdom and you will see 3 persons in heaven and more, come at God saying Lord I am unwise and in need of teacher and you will see that things will not seem the way they use to.

Muslims like the easy life, they believe that because the do not have to bother with the intricacies of a Son thrown into the mix of the Quran and that they can just say God is one God and he is a Spirit, it some how puts you above all others. Its simplistic and not confusing.

Let me show you now why Allah confuses me ?

Allah is an unseen God right, from beginning to end in the Quran right ? Allah is a Spirit. A Spirit as no feet, no legs, no arms, no flesh. A Spirit cannot suffer and cannot die. A Spirit knows all things and is everywhere, never tired, never hungry and never poor.

Yet Allah wants to judge me, who subject to all these things without ever passing my way ? Allah wants to tell me I should remain pure in a corrupt world, while sitting from beginning to end in an Heavenly palace. Wants to tell me, and shouldn't fail when tempted when in heaven amongst the Angels he cannot be tempted.

Come on come on Chinkkie....

why you still fighting this ?

And now you going to start an additional argument by saying the bible is not a primary source of evidence ?.

Know how many different books were around Chinkkie during the times of the early church, Gnostic books, books of witchcraft which all tried to infiltrate Christianity ?.

Why do you think Apostle Paul writes "Some have tried to creep in unawares".

Jude 1
[suP]4[/suP]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible speaks of wolves in sheeps clothing, think others did not try to claim messiahship during Jesus time or even prior to him coming ?

thats why Jesus said I am the good Shepherd, and a Good Shepherd lay down is life for his sheep. Other false messiahs were not willing to go the whole distance and did not go as scripture foretold.

chinkkie · (#55 (**permalink**))

Throughout the world, Jews and Christians claim to believe in (and to act on) the Ten Commandments as commands from God which God revealed to Prophet Moses (peace be upon him). The point of this short essay is to do a close reading of the version of the Ten Commandments as contained in the New King James Version of the Holy Bible. Before you proceed in reading the rest of this page, I would like to ask that you stop for one moment and ask yourself, "What do I believe concerning the Ten Commandments?" If you believe that they are, in fact, from God, then the question is this...Are you willing to act on them? Is your church or synagogue willing to act on them?

The First Commandment

"You shall have no other gods before Me."

[*]This is expressed beautifully in the first part of the shahada, or testimony of faith, as La illaha il Allah. "There is nothing worthy of worship except Allah." Both the shahada and the first commandment begin with a negation, and end with an affirmation. In Semetic languages (Hebrew, Arabic, & Aramaic) negation followed by affirmation results in strong emphasis.

"They (Jews & Christians) took their Rabbis and their monks to be their lords beside Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their lord) Messiah, the son of Mary, while they were commanded to worship none but the One God. There is no god but He. Praise and Glory be to Him. He is far above having the partners they ascribe to Him."(Qur'an 9:31)

[*]Once, while Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was reciting the above verse, 'Adi bin Haatim said, "O Prophet of Allah! They do not worship their rabbis and their monks." Muhammad (peace be upon him) replied, "They certainly do. The rabbis and monks made legal things illegal, and illegal things legal, and the Jews and Christians followed them; and by doing so, they worshipped them."

The Second Commandment

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

[*]In the opening paragraph, when I asked the question to the reader, "Are you willing to act on the ten commandments?" and "Is your church or synagogue willing to act on them?" this is the commandment that I had in mind. Because it is very simple; one or the other; either you abide by this commandment or you don't. Commandment #2, before murder and before adultery, commands the believer to avoid making, maintaining, or bowing to statues. [*]If your church has a statue of Jesus (peace be upon him) or Mary (may God be pleased with her), approach your pastor/priest/minister and ask how this can be when it violates the second commandment. Is this a minor commandment, not as important as the others? If it is not important, then what does that say about the other nine? Is it now okay to murder? Commit adultery? Steal?

The Third Commandment

"You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

The Fourth Commandment

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God."

The Fifth Commandment

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you."

The Sixth Commandment

"You shall not murder."

The Seventh Commandment

"You shall not commit adultery."

The Eighth Commandment

"You shall not steal."

The Ninth Commandment

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

The Tenth Commandment

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."

Conclusions

[*]The Word of God mixed with the word of man:

One does not have to be a religious scholar to open up the Book of Exodus, flip to chapter twenty (The Ten Commandments) and see for oneself that the Bible, itself, claims that it is not the pure Word of God. The first verse of Exodus 20 reads: "And God spoke all these words, saying..." These words are attributed to Moses (peace be upon him), a man. What follows are the Ten Commandments, and it is important to note that they are in quotes, indicating that someone is speaking. According to the first verse, God spoke what is in quotes. Well, what then of those words not in quotes? Surely these are not the words of God.

Now, a likely response is that Moses was inspired by God and thus, the words he wrote are the words of God as well. What then of the few verses before the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 19:21-24? These verses start off referring to Moses (peace be upon him) in the third person, again indicating that he didn't write it either. These verses also put what Moses (peace be upon him) allegedly said in quotes. Using the same logic, whose words are the ones which are not in quotes? Perhaps Moses (peace be upon him) wrote it down in the third person, knowing that others would read these words. This may be the case, but how is it that Moses (peace be upon him) wrote about his own death?

[*]Disobeying the First Commandment

The ancient Jews violated the 1st commandment (from an Islamic perspective) in a number of ways. First of all, they rebelled against many of the messengers (peace be upon them all) and actually aided in their murders. Naturally, this does not implicate all of Judaism, as these acts were at the hands of a few.

However, the Jews who were not responsible for the deaths of the prophets, were still responsible for their messages. If they rejected those messages and messengers, then they, in fact, violate the first commandment. To reject a message sent by God for any reason, is to place that reason above God Himself. The same applies to the messages sent through Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon both of them).

In addition, there are many stories in the Bible and the Qur'an relating how the ancient Jews rejected God in favor of worshipping other things (the calf, etc.). And, as mentioned in the saying of Muhammad above, they actually took their rabbis as lords simply by the fact that they obeyed the rabbis in favor of obeying God. This applies to Jews of today. One example of many is the Talmud and its ruling on interest/usury. The Talmud (a collection of the sayings of numerous rabbis) asserts that it is permissible for a Jew to charge a non-Jew interest on loans...though this is explicitly forbidden in Biblical Law. For the Talmudic reference see Sanhedrin 57a.

As for Christians, it is quite clear from the verse above that Christians (as the very name of the religion implies) worship Christ (peace be upon him). The word Christ comes from the Greek "christos" which means "to annoint", as does "messaha" in Hebrew, from which we get Messiah ("annointed one"). In Islam, we separate creation from the Creator and the Annointed one from the Annointer. God and Jesus (peace be upon him) are two separate and distinct entities. God sent Jesus to the earth. Muslims accept his virgin birth and his miracles, etc. However, we make a distinction between one who was born and the One Who created birth, itself.

Christian worship of Christ (peace be upon him) is not like the Jewish worship of the rabbis of old. Because, the rabbis and their scribes after them were wrong for changing the Law. Jesus (peace be upon him) however, was never wrong, nor did he change the Law. He only spoke the truth. He conveyed God's message as he was supposed to. It is later generations who began worshipping him...in numerous ways...praying to him, doing things in his name, calling on him despite his absence, attributing his miracles to his own powers, etc; essentially giving him attributes that belong to God Alone.

Justavoice · (#56 (**permalink**))

@Chinkkie

Seems to me that in all you have written, that the bible is only being more realistic about the nature of man. According to your Quran then, those who are Islamic never make mistakes, never fail God.

Yet in my bible it shows that such figures like Moses, could part the red sea through the power and will of God, raise up early by divine appointment see the hinder part of God, and yet still make a mistake and fail to santify God before the people. And why ? because Moses was a man.. And so the bible says all under the law are guilty and there no man not even Mohmammed that escaped from under the law.

Be realistic Chinkkie !, you and I know that not all Islamics are perfect.... And God is calling for us to be perfect, not by works but through his grace.

As for the image, In my church, we have no image of Jesus, we have a cross on the wall, and even that we don't bow to.

Jane Doe · (#57 (**permalink**))

@ all

Jesus is the Son of God. Not God himself, not a lesser of two Gods, & not just another prophet. People have to realise there are different types of "christians" who believe different things - so please don't call. Some of these "branches" do believe Jesus is a God "Mary mother of God" & they are mistaken. That itself is a blasphemy. Jesus said to get to God, you have to go through him. He never EVER said he was God.

Lexi · (#58 (**permalink**))

Following up Saints point.

H2ois water

H2o= Water

its made up of 2 hydrogen and1 oxgen to make water.

1+2=3

Water can com in 3 forms

Liquid, Solid and Gas

Water, Ice and Steam

BUT its all water

FOR EXAMPLE

God (The Father) is like water in it's liquid form.

Jesus (The Son) is like Ice- The solid form of water

The Holy Ghost/Spirit is like steam-The gas form of water

God=The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit

Justavoice · (#59 (**permalink**))

@Lexi
banana.gif

My God, I thought I was alone for a minute, somebody that actually understands where I am coming from...

I love the water, ice, steam example... Beautiful.

One God, three manifestations... Like i've been saying all along.

Peace

Jane Doe · (#60 (**permalink**))

@ justavoice & Lexi

Never mind manifestations, If God wanted to reveal himself to the world, why would he say he ishisSon, why confuse everybody. How can he be the Father, Son & Holy Ghost, are you &your father the same person?