@saint....you obviously cant read properly and understand what is written unless the sentance consists of very basic text...

if you had read my post you would see that i referred to the supposed writer of the book (john), and does not say the baptist wrote anything even though it refers to him, so nice try but no cigar.

it is a common fact that john and john the baptist are two different people, but if i did not make this clear then i thank you for pointing it out, however that factor was not the point of my arguement so i wonder why you have focused on thismere vaguenessbut have ignored everything else that was actually in direct response to your earlier post which i found much discrepancy with.

as you seem to have done this to discredit my words then why dont you apply that to the bible itself where you will find much to discredit in terms of contradiction and unauthenticity....but i put it to you that you will not as you are a lost sheep with blind faith which is why you address no other points made and instead make statements that are;

1) PRESUMPTUOUS: even though those christians and their churches will not agree

(saint) "some called themself christians but they don't believe in the Holy spirit, I don't agree that they are christian"

2) CONTRADITORY: so you say he submits to another, talkes to another, but didnt have to, you say he was faking it to teach the people,even though jesus said he submitted to and done the will of his father, sounds like he had to, to me, or are you calling him a liar.

(saint) "Jesus came to serve, he humbled himself and he showed the Way to the Father, summiting Himself to the Will of the Father. This why he often prayed and talked to God, it is what he wants us to Do, not that he had to do that, but he had to show us the way it is done"

3) INCOMPREHENSIBLE: you clearly have a poor understanding as you can argue no points throughout all your posts whereas others can, but you state one will understand by reading and revelation of the sprit... which is it, cos if its the latter then it will not matter how much bible studies you do according to you, without the spirits intevention, even though most people will learn by studying, researchand mental ability alone, without meditation or revelation.

(saint) "in order to understand the Bible properly, one has to read it and meditate on it, ask the Holy spirit to reveal the things of Jesus. One has to spend time doing bible studies, you may not understand some things until you read the previous verse, chapter or book etc."

@ chinkkie: listen you wrote In the following verse is another example of this phenomena in the bible. this is the word of john, but clearly john was not there in the beginning, and it can not be proven that john wrote this anyhow, so how can john be saying this. it does not even say that jesus or god told john this as he merely was sent to testify that there was a light, and that light was to come into the world which would therefore be a future event, and this gives him no authority according to the bible to say what happened in the beginning which would be a past event, or that he was told what happened in the beginning.

"in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. He was with god in the beginning" (john, 1)


Reading that above, yousaid he was merely sent to testify that there was alight, yes that is John the Baptist. But you then went on to say he wasn't there in the beginning, and how could he writeor say"In the beginning................." ? That was written by John the Disciple, to me it seems you are confused.

Back to the points you raised, I told ya.............. you seem to be enjoying this debate by saying what you don't know, I have used vivid examples to describe my points, but you would not listen. That is why I don't want to debate with you again, you said i didn't take your points on, I did earlier, but you coming with different stuffs that you don't understand each time.

1) PRESUMPTUOUS: even though those christians and their churches will not agree

It doesn't matter what you call it, if anyone does not believe in the Holy Spirit and they called themselves christians, they are JOKERS. That is the fact, it is not arrogance.

2) CONTRADITORY: so you say he submits to another, talkes to another, but didnt have to, you say he was faking it to teach the people,even though jesus said he submitted to and done the will of his father, sounds like he had to, to me, or are you calling him a liar.


Stop putting words in my mouth, I never called Him a liar, Christ lived an examplary live, yes He didn't have to pray before Healing people, but he Did that so that we may also do the same. He said for " I know You always Hear me" . Phil2:6 says " Who being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God .... something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness". That is all humility. You need to understand what the Bible says before Jumping up and down.

3 INCOMPREHENSIBLE: you clearly have a poor understanding as you can argue no points throughout all your posts whereas others can, but you state one will understand by reading and revelation of the sprit... which is it, cos if its the latter then it will not matter how much bible studies you do according to you, without the spirits intevention, even though most people will learn by studying, researchand mental ability alone, without meditation or revelation

Thanks you for your comments, whatever you call it, I understand what I am saying. I don't know who have poor understanding, you saw the conjunction "and" and you are still asking me which one. Ofcourse it has to be both. If you read the bible properly then you will see where it says read the word and meditate on it, also it says Read it and ask the Helper( the Holy Spirit) to reveal the things of God to you. As you read the Bible with the wrong motive, you cannot see this netiher can you understand what you are reading.

The Question I have to ask myself now or even ask you is why should I continue this debate with you?

Justavoice wrote Tell me then if there are three God's in heaven, on that day when we are taken up, which God as the highest name ?

I don't believe in three Gods or I wouldn't/couldn't be calling myself a Christian. I do see your point tho, & I think you just misinterpreted what I was saying. What I am saying is Jesus is not a God, he is the son of.

Saint wrote ...But now there are somethings which are fundamental and for you to called yourself a christian you have to believe in such things, like Jesus died for me etc. And part of it is that Jesus is God...

I do believe Jesus died for me, I believe in the holy spirit but I don't believe Jesus is God. Why would God confuse people by calling himself the son of God.?

Chinkkie wrote ...the devil would not ask god to bowdown to him, or try to tempt him with worldly goods and splendour which belong to god anyway, therefore jesus could no way have been god...

I don't always agree with everything you say (for obvious reasons) but this summed up the point I've been trying to make. Would the devil really try to tempt God Himself? Common sense tells you he wouldn't, couldn't!

@Jane Doe: What does the word Emmanuel or Immanuel means, and who does it refers to in the bible?

@saint..... yes the baptist was sent, but john supposedly wrote about it in the book of john. john (the writer) was not there to witness this or the transformation of the word so how can he authentically write it, the baptist was not there in the beginning either, therefore none of them could know what happened in the beginning, so it would be impossible for the writer to write in the way it is written and be truthful as neither the writer or baptist were there in the beginning so how can they write about it as if they were.

that was my point, but as i said you focused on the vagueness not the point, and however you interpret it the point is still the same...

also... you constantly try to condemn or judge the knowlege of others when cleary your own knowledge of the bible and general rationality is of a sub-level. you call other christians "jokers" and you think that bible understanding is only possible through the holy spirit and meditating. however, this is an aid not a requirement. youignore that many understand the bible and other subjects at a very high level without the spirits intevention or meditation, but i do think that you most definatly are meditating too much and awaiting revelation and not reading and reasoning enough or appropriatly in the meantime as your posts clearly show.

i question your understanding and reasoning as i have from you original posts. as i have said, you merely try to point out defects or state shoddy incoherant points and can answer no points made or put to you. you have even done this to Jane-Doe in your most recent point but have ignored the point she previously directed towards you that questioned your earlier post.

you also seem to bactrack on your words, and this is really the sign of a hypocrite. it was you that said that jesus submitted to gods will but did not have to. i pointed out to you that this is untrue because you would have to agree that jesus was sent and was required to submit to his gods will, but you now say that i put words in your mouth, and that jesus only prayed to show us how to do it, even though you would agree that this was only part of it as jesus also done gods will and prayed to god for help and guidance in order to do his work.

"by MYSELF i can do NOTHING.... for i seek not to please myself but HIM who SENT me" [john 5: 30]

"for theFATHER loves the son and SHOWS him all he does" [john 5: 20}

"the world must learn that i love the father andI DO EXACTLYwhat my father hasCOMMANDED me" [john 14:31]


jesus said, "I tell youthe truth, theSON can doNOTHING by HIMSELF" [john 5: 19]

"i am the true vine, and my father is the gardener.HE CUTS OFFevery branch in me that bears no fruit. while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful"{john 15:1-2]

"i will give you all their authority and splendour, for it has been GIVEN to me" [luke 4:5]

I have been going round and round with you, you just making me repeat myself over and over. Listen I say you are putting words in my mouth: I wrote This is thewhy he often prayed and talked to God, it is what he wants us to Do, not that he had to do that, but he had to show us the way it is done.

I never said he doesn't have to submit to the will of the Father, so your interpretation is incorrect. not surprised by this, as you having been doing that all along. I said he doesn't have to pray before healing, he is only showing us how to do it. Anyway, the Father, and The son are always in agreement. So you confusing yourself, I did not backtrack at all.

Also, with Jane Doe, I don't want to agrue with her...... that was why I asked her a simple question. Well the important thing is that we agree on a lot of things, She believed Jesus died for her, she believe in the Holy Spirit etc She says she doesn't believe that Jesus is God, which is wrong. But I hope she come to realise that soon, but we have a lot in common, so I have no problem with that. The question is where do you stand?? I am not avoiding you or your questions, but I have answered them all and I am not prepared to be going round in circles or to be repeating myself.

It is true that you put words in my mouth, I said reading,meditating on the bible and asking the Holy spirit to show the things of Gods are the way to understand the bible. But what you have done is to say I said it is the only way to understand the Bible. I never used the word only. You see you are quoting me wrongly. New believers may need some help from those who have more insight, so you can learn from others, teachers, preachers etc.

Finally, you are right John wasn't there in the beginning, but he was a Disciple of Jesus. He was taught by the Master who was there in the Beginning. So he has every right to write what he has written. Furthermore, he had an Encounter with God or a revelation. So he knows a lot.

@saint.... clearly the reason why you repeat yourself is because you constantly refuse or ignore to answer new points, and are insteadselective and objective in your arguments and rationality. one only has to read all you posts on this thread alone to realise this.

you have backtracked... because earlier you said.....

(SAINT) "in order to understand the Bible properly, one has to read it and meditate on it, ask the Holy spirit to reveal the things of Jesus."

........however, now you say something different as we both know this is not a requirement.

and......

(SAINT) "This why he often prayed and talked to God, it is what he wants us to Do, not that he had to do that"

.........however, we both khow that this prayer and conversing was a sign of his submitting to god.

Submit: to yield oneself to the authority or control of another, to surrender. to subject to a process. to present for consideration or decision.

on your last point, as i said, john was not there so has not authority to write in the first person as he has. in fact jesus was not there either. and if you are to interpret the "word became flesh" verses to say he was, this would in fact be after the beginning, and jesus was clearly taught by god after this, so if jesus was in fact the word that became flesh, he clearly still had to be taught what that word was.

"i am the true vine, and my father is the gardener.HE CUTS OFFevery branch in me that bears no fruit. while every branch that does bear fruitHE PRUNESso that it will be even more fruitful"{john 15:1-2]

"for theFATHER loves the son and SHOWS him all he does" [john 5: 20}

jesus said, "I tell youthe truth, theSON can doNOTHING by HIMSELF" [john 5: 19]

"by MYSELF i can do NOTHING.... for i seek not to please myself but HIM who SENT me" [john 5: 30]


....... anyway you are right, this debate will go round and round as you are not prepared to question your beliefs come what may, and i do not expect you to, however, you should not ignore the obvious contradictions and discrepancies in the available "word", and that is all i have sought to highlight. Even scholar, teachers and preachers study such points and where relevant accept certain problems regarding contradictions, discrepancies and authenticity with christianity and biblical text. It doesnt make you a bad christian to study or accept them also where relavant, it makes you a rational christian!!!

"Here Isaiah says Jesus is the Father. Does not this deal a deathblow to the theory that the Son is a person eternally distinct from the Father?".


......... is there not a difference between saying he will be called "mighty god", and, he IS mighty god.

Is issaiah not prophesising that MAN will call this child "mighty god", "wonduful counsellor", etc, which has a different connotation or meaning than if it said that that god or the angels would call this child mighty god. Isaiah was right, as christians do call him god, so is this not what the prophecy refers too and does not actually confirm association of any divine mighty power.

...on the water thing... and yes ive made a comment on this before..... since a single glass of water cannot be distinctly water, liquid and gas at the same time, is it a suitable comparison to the belief that god is son, father and spirit at the same time.

for the glass of water to be solid, liquid and gas at the same time it must first be splitor seperated into 3 separate glasses first and would no longer be a whole. then one is steamed, one is frozen and one is left as water. alternatively todo this as a whole, one would have to freeze it, thaw it out, steam it, allow the steam to condensate, therefore the three processes could not happen simultaneously and the three forms could not exist simultaneously.

however, with the trinity,the idea is that the 3 forces of "god" are not separated from the whole, while existing simultaneously.

therefore the twoideas do not compare and the comparison is flawed or mismatched, if fact nothing can be compared to the idea of the trinity inits true essence which is why it cannot be properly explained.

"I'm saying that to say this. There is nothing you can tell me about the Christian Doctrine that I don't already know...nothing. So it really is useless to try to INFORM me of what I already know. "

Seventh Angel....doctrine is taught by men. Truth is taught by the spirit. Knowing all the doctrine of this world will not be beneficial going into the next world.

It will be just as when you were born.

I have read all the posts and have an observation for all who posted (repeatedly) on this topic!

My observation is simply this:

It is clear that no one who has posted here is so great, or so holy, so wonderful, so knowledgable, and so full of selfless love...........

to have completelyescaped the influence of Satan himself.

Know your hearts....see them as God does? Man greatest desire is self worship...self service....and exalting oneself! Know the truth and DIE to self.

Their is not enough room for more than one God!

Reread all the posts and tell me I speak lies!