"Does God 'EXIST'? - Page 2

Ahmaad · (#26 (**permalink**))

Iolite:

Here's an attempt to answer your question....

http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackf...01&forum_id=26

silver moon · (#27 (**permalink**))

if your dont believe in god then u believe in "nothing"

but when you think about what is"nothing" has anyone alive ever seen "nothing" . i dont think thiers a person alive who has or ever will. people dont believe in god they say "how can i believe in something i have never seen" but why do they believe in nothing beforethe big bang (when they them self have never seen "nothing")???????

dontyou need faithto, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof such as "nothing" what proof or evidence of "nothing" do you have?

you need faith to believe in "nothing"

so if you can believe in nothing with out ever seeing it why cant u believe in god ?

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

if a fool lives to eat and a wise man eats to live, then a believer lives to worship Allah.

flow-unclever · (#28 (**permalink**))

The very same people who say they don;t believe in God because they cannot see any proof are the same people:

1) Who walk into buildings without checking the architectrual drawings of the building or the engineering calculations if the building is sound. what is the basis for them to walk into these buildings? They have seen others walk in and the building stood firm hencethey draw conlusionthere isn't any danger for them if they walked in.

2) the very same people who go to a GP without testing the GP about his medical knowledge or without taking the pills he is precribing for them to the lab to confirm if they are actually what they are. They let doctros do what they like to them and take any pills without actually knowing what is the chemical composition of these pills all they rely on is what the label says and what the doctors tell them

If they claim to have such enquiring minds as they claim to have why not take this approach on every aspect of their lives? If you are the seeker of proof before acceptance then seek proof on everything do not have double standards or having false claim of being something you are not.

Anyway there is a way to find the proof of the existence of God and in Islam it is called Ilm yakin (knowledge of certainty) it is a discpline and pursue it till you get to the desired conlusion. And yes it can indeed be very taxing. others have pursued it and got the answers they sought. but ofcourse pursuing any discipline requires patience, dedication, himmility, and alot of hard work. Qualities you are unlikely to find on majority of people.

imported_Seventh_Angel · (#29 (**permalink**))

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...the Best Knower

Iolite wrote:

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Quran 02: 256 says there is no compulsion in religion, HOWEVER:
"Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility."
Also, if religion cannot be compelled on a person, why do you murder those who convert out of Islam?

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Regarding the above, This is referring to those disbelievers who declared and waged war on the Muslims. Also, there is no Qur'anic Basis for killing apostates simply BECAUSE they leave Islam. Anyone who does that is NOT following the Holy Qur'an.

Surah 41:9, 10, 12 list creation as having taken eight days, but Surah 10:3 says it was only six...which is it???

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First of all, the verses cited from Surah 41 do NOT say "eight days". It mentions three periods - 2 days, 4 days, and 2 days. Is it not possible for a Supreme Creator to accomplish some or all of these acts of creation simultaneously, as opposed to consecutively, as your logic suggests? Let's say that the first "2 days" and the last "2 days" are actually the same period. Would that not make the total time 6 days?...or six periods of time? (depending on which translation is used).

Quran 31: 29 Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

Day and night are not the result of the movement of the sun, but the rotation of the Earth.

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It is a well established and well known fact among astronomers that the Sun and it's planets - our Solar System -are indeed travelling in an orbit, even as the planets themselves travel in orbits round the Sun. In other words, the Sun is following a course, carrying It's family of planets with it.

At-Tariq 086.005-007
So let man consider from what he is created.
He is created from a gushing fluid
That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Sperm doesn't come from anywhere near the ribs.

Al-Mulk 067.005 - Stars were made as missiles to be used against Djinns trying to get in Heaven.
And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

Stars are not missiles.

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Theseverses should be read from other translators to get a fuller understanding of what is being communicated. For instance, in the Maulana Muhammad Ali translation, 67:5 reads, "And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We make them means of conjectures for the devils, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning."

Luqman 031.010 - The Earth has to be stabilized by mountains so it does not quake.
He hath created the heavens without supports that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm hills, so that it quake not with you;

Mountains don't stop the Earth from quaking.

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Mountains were Created to serve as counter-balances to compensate for the earth's imperfect shape, much like couterbalances that are used on imbalanced tires - to provide for a smoother ride. Both the Mountains and the angle at which the Earth rotates contribute to the smoothe ride we enjoy on our planet, which has a tremendous weight of 6 sextillion tons, andwhich rotates on Her axis at the speed of 1,037 1/3 mph, and travels in Her Orbit around the Sun at the rate of 66,600 mph. Any imbalance in such a huge body, travelling at such a terrific speed would cause some siginificant quaking...lol.

Iolite · (#30 (**permalink**))

silver moon wrote:

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if your dont believe in god then u believe in "nothing"

but when you think about what is "nothing" has anyone alive ever seen "nothing" . i dont think thiers a person alive who has or ever will. people dont believe in god they say "how can i believe in something i have never seen" but why do they believe in nothing before the big bang (when they them self have never seen "nothing")???????

dont you need faith to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof such as "nothing" what proof or evidence of "nothing" do you have?

you need faith to believe in "nothing"

so if you can believe in nothing with out ever seeing it why cant u believe in god ?

In a way, I do believe in nothing; I have no religion but I practice the philosophy of zen taoism. As for believing in a god, which one? There are countless gods out there. What reason do I have to believe that the Islamic or Christian god is the true one. There is no more proof for Allah or Yaweh than there is for Vishnu, Zeus, or Thor. BTW, I don't believe 100% in the big bang. When I did that theory post, I was playing devil's advocate. You see, I'm majoring in a science related field, and it irks me when people use the word "theory" incorrectly. Where the universe came from I really have no idea, and I am actually o.k. with that. If you can give me definitive proof of its origins, then I'll believe. The writings of bronze age Arabs do not constitute definitive proof, anymore than the Torah or Popol Vuh.

Ahmaad, as for the universe being created, how do you know it was created? Why couldn't it have already existed as is, with no beginning or end? You claim the same about your god.

flow-unclever · (#31 (**permalink**))

BlackMatta wrote:

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@flow-unclever

Muslims have a God.

The problems start when they say that their God is everybody's God.

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Muslim do not say this, It is Allah Himself who declaresthat He is the Lord of all the worlds. Muslims merely repeat what Allah says.

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Is it written into your faith that you do not accept those who choose not to be Muslim and choose not recognise your God?

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Accept them in what context? If they have something benefitial to our faith we deal with them if they have something detrimental we avoid them.

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if you have a healthy body you can keep company with fellow healthy people and certain people with illnesses. But you do not keep company with some people who might have certain illnesses which could also be passed on to your body.

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Issues of faith are similar. Our faith refrains us from drinking so a company of drinkers is not ideal for our faith especially during the drinking.

Have you considered that the answers you seek and what you have found as a Muslim is not what others want for themselves?

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What you want for yourself will only satisfy your emotional happiness when you find it (emotional satisfaction). Just like when you find the best food for your taste will only satisfy your taste buds. it doesn;t necessarily means it is best for your body and health. Olives can taste quite nasty to some people while Mcdonalds could taste nice tothose verypeople, just because the taste buds are satisfied by McDsit doesn't mean the whole body is satified or benefited by McD.

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In the same way as you may not choose to pick up and digest a text on Druidism so a non-Muslim may choose not to follow Islam.

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Equally a Druid may say that once you have fully read and understood their "literature" and partaken in their "festivals" and "utterances" you will get to the answers you are seeking. Should you?

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these theories could be very fascinating for the intellect as well as emotional happiness but again in the grand scheme of things is it just the satisfaction of the needs of immediate?

Chances are, what you willingly surround yourself with will become the truth for you, be that Islam or Druidism or anything else.

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Muslim who wish to gain the knowledge of ceirtainty of God actually take up to isolation.

Iolite · (#32 (**permalink**))

flow-unclever wrote:

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The very same people who say they don;t believe in God because they cannot see any proof are the same people:

1) Who walk into buildings without checking the architectrual drawings of the building or the engineering calculations if the building is sound. what is the basis for them to walk into these buildings? They have seen others walk in and the building stood firm hence they draw conlusion there isn't any danger for them if they walked in.

2) the very same people who go to a GP without testing the GP about his medical knowledge or without taking the pills he is precribing for them to the lab to confirm if they are actually what they are. They let doctros do what they like to them and take any pills without actually knowing what is the chemical composition of these pills all they rely on is what the label says and what the doctors tell them

If they claim to have such enquiring minds as they claim to have why not take this approach on every aspect of their lives? If you are the seeker of proof before acceptance then seek proof on everything do not have double standards or having false claim of being something you are not.

Anyway there is a way to find the proof of the existence of God and in Islam it is called Ilm yakin (knowledge of certainty) it is a discpline and pursue it till you get to the desired conlusion. And yes it can indeed be very taxing. others have pursued it and got the answers they sought. but ofcourse pursuing any discipline requires patience, dedication, himmility, and alot of hard work. Qualities you are unlikely to find on majority of people.

Your anaologies don't hold. Given the number of buildings that one walks into, and the number that actually collapse, it is a safe bet that when you walk into a building it won't come crashing down. To be a doctor (sorry, not sure what a GP is), you need accredited medical training. Most medical practitioners have not been prohibted from working, therefore we can assume that others have found their knowledge of the field satisfactory. What evidence do you have for your god that others do not have for theirs? Whatever claim you can make, chances are I can make one about another deity. We have evidence that buildings most likely won't fall, and medical practioners will know their stuff; what hard evidence do we have for the existance of a deity? BTW, I don't disbelieve in dieties because I can't see them. As a matter of fact I'm more of an agnostic because I maintain that there is no way to prove or disprove the existanc of anything supernatural. That's just as true for Allah as it is for Zeus and Odin. However, from a practical perspective, I don't believe in those guys anymore than I do in Allah or Yeweh.

flow-unclever · (#33 (**permalink**))

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Your anaologies don't hold. Given the number of buildings that one walks into, and the number that actually collapse, it is a safe bet that when you walk into a building it won't come crashing down. To be a doctor (sorry, not sure what a GP is), you need accredited medical training. Most medical practitioners have not been prohibted from working, therefore we can assume that others have found their knowledge of the field satisfactory. What evidence do you have for your god that others do not have for theirs? Whatever claim you can make, chances are I can make one about another deity. We have evidence that buildings most likely won't fall, and medical practioners will know their stuff; what hard evidence do we have for the existance of a deity? BTW, I don't disbelieve in dieties because I can't see them. As a matter of fact I'm more of an agnostic because I maintain that there is no way to prove or disprove the existanc of anything supernatural. That's just as true for Allah as it is for Zeus and Odin. However, from a practical perspective, I don't believe in those guys anymore than I do in Allah or Yeweh.

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To be a doctor (sorry, not sure what a GP is), you need accredited medical training. Most medical practitioners have not been prohibted from working, therefore we can assume that others have found their knowledge of the field satisfactory. What evidence do you have for your god that others do not have for theirs?

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To sum it up you are saying you believe in what doctors do because the medical bodies have told you that these drs have been tested and they are ok to work.

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What evidence do you have for your god that others do not have for theirs?

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Muslims believe in god because men of God who have been given the certainty and vision of god came to them and told them about the existence of God, the way this god works and what to do to preserve your faith just like a Dr tells you what to do to preserve your body. these men were tested during their times to prove their authenticity and they all passed their tests. Some of them were given the message of this God in the form of Quran for Prophet Muhammad, Injil for prophet Isa (jesus), Zabur for prophet Daud (David), and Taurat/Tora for prophet Musa (Moses). They all had seals of prophethood and people of such knowledge of that time knew the tests involved and some people of our modern times are aware of these tests. You see not many people can check who is actually a genuine doctor. Infact Allah sent 200,000 such Messengers to every nation on earthand Prophet Muhammad was the last of them while Prophet adam our father was the 1st.

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Whatever claim you can make, chances are I can make one about another deity.

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Lets hear it.

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We have evidence that buildings most likely won't fall, and medical practioners will know their stuff; what hard evidence do we have for the existance of a deity?

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Camel dung is an evidence of camel, footprints are an evidence of man, anything made/created is an evidence of a Creator.

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BTW, I don't disbelieve in dieties because I can't see them. As a matter of fact I'm more of an agnostic because I maintain that there is no way to prove or disprove the existanc of anything supernatural. That's just as true for Allah as it is for Zeus and Odin. However, from a practical perspective, I don't believe in those guys anymore than I do in Allah or Yeweh.

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I bet you don't believe in love, happiness, hatred, anger and sadness because they are also not visible.

flow-unclever · (#34 (**permalink**))

BlackMatta wrote:

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@flow-unclever

So it follows that Islam only satisfies your emotional happiness.

BlackMatta.

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The point is it does not have to satisfy your immediate emotional happiness, whether it does or it does not it isstill good for you and the fruits will only be evident if you keep striving. Authenticity and benefitsof islamare not measured by how happy it makes you.They are measured by their long term benefits.

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Happiness in this world is not a priority this life is only an examination. We work and struggle in this world to earn happiness in the next. We do not yet know what that happiness will be like we have only been given the glimpse of it in this life.

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flow-unclever · (#35 (**permalink**))

Ofcourse there is a difference, Muslims desire to draw close to Allah as means for salvation whiledruids have use other means for a possibly similar goal. You have 2 groups of people desiring what appears to be similar goals but the means to this end could be massively different. And to be honest muslims would be deeply offended to be compared with druids. In the similar manner certain vegetarians get offened in being compared with meat eaters although both of them have the same desire to fill their bellies.

In terms of diet meat eaters are very much different from vegetarians.

in terms of games of sports cricketers are very much different from footballers.

in terms of branches of knowledge physists are different from linguists.

In terms of issues of faith and the desire for ultimate goals druids are different from Muslims.

There could be certain similarities between each of the contrsating groups i have put forward. but similarities do not make things identical/same it leaves them as similar.

In simple terms do not sweep every group of faith under the same brush.