Understanding Islam 2 - Page 3

jamal786 · (#51 (**permalink**))

I think you need to read the bible, particularly where it says:

"...There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.Job 1:1-22 (King James Version)"

"The son (the progeny of Adam) shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father (Adam)." Ezekiel 18:20

"every man shall receive his OWN reward according to his OWN labour."I Corinthians 3:8

"The fathers shall NOT be put to death for the children, NEITHER shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his OWN sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

"But every one shall die for his OWN iniquity ..." Jeremiah 31:30:

“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these." Mark 10:14

jamal786 · (#52 (**permalink**))

Compare YOUR verse:

"There is NO ONE righteous, not even ONE; Romans 3:10

To MY verse:

There WAS a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.Job 1:1-22 (King James Version)"

Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these. Luke 18:16

Is this a contradiction i see before me!

KANOBI · (#53 (**permalink**))

jamal786 wrote:

Quote:

Compare YOUR verse:

"There is NO ONE righteous, not even ONE; Romans 3:10

To MY verse:

There WAS a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.Job 1:1-22 (King James Version)"

Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS to such as these. Luke 18:16

Is this a contradiction i see before me!

Quote:

ANSWERED!

Quote:

http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackf...6/10736-2.html

jamal786 · (#54 (**permalink**))

@KANOBI

...that is not even an answer.

The following is the verse that YOU used:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10 KJV

So, now I ask you to consider that:

1. If the bible tells that Jesus, Melchizedek, David, or Moses were/are righteous, then Romans 3:10 is incorrect.

2. If the bible tells that Job 1:1 was perfect, upright and avoided sin, then Romans 3:10 is a contradiction.

3. If you believe that those that believe in jesus have their sins washed away, then Romans 3:10 is incorrect.

...you cant have it both ways:

If you believe in any of these 3 concepts above then you have to admit that Romans 3:10 is either a bible contradiction or a bible mistake.

If you believe in Romans 3:10 as correct, then you must believe in the 3 points above as incorrect...

...and if you are even to try to argue that Romans 3:10 is ONLY meant for a specific people in a specific period, then i will ask you then WHY have YOU used it to back up your arguement that ALL are sinners. Are we forgetting that whenever you are proved wrong YOU have a tendancy to argue that the opposition does not use verses in context or read chapters in full... Maybe you do not follow your own advice!...

KANOBI · (#55 (**permalink**))

jamal786 wrote:

Quote:

@KANOBI

...that is not even an answer.

The following is the verse that YOU used:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10 KJV

So, now I ask you to consider that:

1. If the bible tells that Jesus, Melchizedek, David, or Moses were/are righteous, then Romans 3:10 is incorrect.

2. If the bible tells that Job 1:1 was perfect, upright and avoided sin, then Romans 3:10 is a contradiction.

3. If you believe that those that believe in jesus have their sins washed away, then Romans 3:10 is incorrect.

...you cant have it both ways:

If you believe in any of these 3 concepts above then you have to admit that Romans 3:10 is either a bible contradiction or a bible mistake.

If you believe in Romans 3:10 as correct, then you must believe in the 3 points above as incorrect...

...and if you are even to try to argue that Romans 3:10 is ONLY meant for a specific people in a specific period, then i will ask you then WHY have YOU used it to back up your arguement that ALL are sinners. Are we forgetting that whenever you are proved wrong YOU have a tendancy to argue that the opposition does not use verses in context or read chapters in full... Maybe you do not follow your own advice!...

Quote:

Whats wrong with you can't you see my argument?

What have you been following?

Quote:

Romans is correct nobody is truely righteous meaning nobody has lived without sinning.

Quote:

And I answered what was meant in Job 1:1 so why are you still following your argument. Why are you even dreaming up this idea it was specific period. Are you arguing with me or are you arguing with yourself. Pay attention Jamal its not a good look.

KANOBI · (#56 (**permalink**))

Read this Jamal and stop playing ignorant. http://www.tektonics.org/af/allsinners.html

You know my positionand even if you want to argue some where righteous meaning they never sinned so they met God standard can you say you did? You don't make the grade!because the the Kingdom of God belongs to those like children!

Nasima · (#57 (**permalink**))

jamal786 wrote:

Quote:

""Our natural inclination is not to submit we must be taught not to be selfish. Also as the quran tells us satan whispers in mans ears. So the fight is a losing one it is only God who can save you."" (KANOBI)

If children are born pure and not in sin, and the kingdom of heaven belongs to them (Matthew 19:14), our natural inclination is therefore to submit.

It is true that the devil "whispers" in our ears to cause us to go astray. However, it is a choice whether we follow these influences or not. We seek refuge in Allah to keep us on the right path and protect us from such influences.

Quote:

This is the main point that i seek to emphasize in this discussion , The Same point in which i feel has been harped on enough. Jamal your points are the most precise in my view. Bottom line is indeed the freedom of choice which God freely gives us . It's all part of him wanting are hearts . He could will us to do whatever it is he deems necessary . However it's our own willingness to submitt that he seeks .

Quote:

Iam in agreeance (with some not all)of the Teachings of Islam I've developed a respect for the reverant determination,perservance and consistant discipline to pray in Islam as well as some of the laws in reguards to women and men interaction. I've taken the time to study much about it and iam sure there's much more that i could learn I do feel it's imperitive that one should take the opportunity to study other religions to get an understandingor if anything to obtain Knowledge andWisdom. TheMajorconflict that i have is the exculsion of Christ and his teachings.

Surah 1. The Opening

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Surah 114. Mankind

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
2. The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
3. The Allah (for judge) of Mankind,-
4. From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
5. (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
6. Among Jinns and among men.

""Lying again! The bible speaks about legality on earth in Ezekiel and you twist its meaning by making up rubbish. Read the bible!"" (KANOBI)

..lol

How can i be lying when i am reading from the bible which you believe.

...No, man is not DESTINED to sin. Man has the freewill to choose to sin or not to sin. The same as Adam had the freewill to choose to sin or not to sin. Man is the same as Adam, no better and no worse. However, Adams choices were his OWN. Just as OUR choices are OUR own. Remember it is YOUR bible that says:

Quote:

clp)clp)ABSOLUTELY !!!!!!

Quote:

This is the point in the discussion i'd like to come in and kindly say that this is why the STRONG RELIVANCE of CHRIST and his teachings come into play. His purpose or shall i say one of many purposes why Christ came down apon earth sent by GOD was to also show man that he could overcome sin , becuase he's a living example of that for us as Christians.

Quote:

WE ARE FAILABLE !!!!! THEREFORE WE WILL SIN . BUT WE ARE AS JAMAL SAID GIVEN CHOICES NOT TO SIN . THE BOOK OF ACTS IS A BOOK I WOULD ENCOURAGE ALL TO READ AS WELL IT ADDRESSES THIS TOPIC CLEARLY.

Quote:

I'm quite taken by this topic and iam learning much , for that iam pleased.

Quote:

Nasima guyflag

Quote:

The son (the progeny of Adam) shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father (Adam)." Ezekiel 18:20

"every man shall receive his OWN reward according to his OWN labour."I Corinthians 3:8 (and the problem is?)

"...There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.Job 1:1-22 (King James Version)"

Nasima · (#58 (**permalink**))

TheStudent wrote:

Quote:

offtopic.gif
'nasima' means 'gentle breeze' in arabic

Thank You for letting me know that my brother. Now on to addressing your points you've mentioned below :

Quote:

i think we have strayed again off of the topic.

My point was that the WHOLE universe was created in a state of submission to the will of God, or in arabic, ISLAM. do you agree to this?

First part of your statement has my full / complete aggreance. However you mentioned in Arabic it's one in the same , note my brother i don't adopt those teachings,I adopt the teachings of Christainity therefore submission to God and his son Jesus Christ is what i adhere to and acknowledge.

all i want you to recognise is that, initially, you too were made in a state of ISLAM. it is only through external influences that takes us away from ISLAM.
do you also agree with this?

My Dearest Brother i remain still consistant with my previous statements i was made NOT in the state of Islam , BUT in the State of Submission to God , not a way of life called "Islam" for me it's Christianity.

so on understanding the state of the universe and the state YOU were created in, would you agree that SUBMISSION TO THE WILL OF GOD, or simply ISLAM is the ONLY way of life acceptable to God?

My last Statement clarifies and/or follows up with this closing statement my brother WE OR SHALL I SAY I SUBMITT TO AND ONLY TO GOD ! NOT A WAY OF THINKING WHICH TO ME IS ISLAM. NOW CLARIFY FOR ME BOTH THESE WORDS AND THEIR DEFINITIONS SO WE MAY BE UNITED IN UNDERSTANDING AND BY LIKE MIND ON ONE PAGE :

ISLAM -

MUSLIM-

CHRISTIAN-

Continue to have a Blessed Day my brother .

Nasima. guyflag

jamal786 · (#59 (**permalink**))

jamal786 wrote: @KANOBI

...that is not even an answer.

The following is the verse that YOU used:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10 KJV

So, now I ask you to consider that:

1. If the bible tells that Jesus, Melchizedek, David, or Moses were/are righteous, then Romans 3:10 is incorrect.

2. If the bible tells that Job 1:1 was perfect, upright and avoided sin, then Romans 3:10 is a contradiction.

3. If you believe that those that believe in jesus have their sins washed away, then Romans 3:10 is incorrect.

...you cant have it both ways:

If you believe in any of these 3 concepts above then you have to admit that Romans 3:10 is either a bible contradiction or a bible mistake.

If you believe in Romans 3:10 as correct, then you must believe in the 3 points above as incorrect...

...and if you are even to try to argue that Romans 3:10 is ONLY meant for a specific people in a specific period, then i will ask you then WHY have YOU used it to back up your arguement that ALL are sinners. Are we forgetting that whenever you are proved wrong YOU have a tendancy to argue that the opposition does not use verses in context or read chapters in full... Maybe you do not follow your own advice!...

KANOBI WROTE: Whats wrong with you can't you see my argument? What have you been following?

Romans is correct nobody is truely righteous meaning nobody has lived without sinning.

And I answered what was meant in Job 1:1 so why are you still following your argument. Why are you even dreaming up this idea it was specific period. Are you arguing with me or are you arguing with yourself. Pay attention Jamal its not a good look.
.................................................. .........

.....So KANOBI, are you saying that Jesus, Melchizedek, David, and Moses were/are NOT righteous and were/are SINNERS?

Are you saying Job WAS a sinner even though the bible explicitly states a different story? He obviously remained pure and innocent like a child:

(Job 1:1) There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that feared God, and ESCHEWED evil.

(Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is NONE like him in the earth, a PERFECT and an UPRIGHT man, one that feareth God, and ESCHEWETH evil?

KANOBI · (#60 (**permalink**))

Job answered (the word translated as perfect does notimply he was sinless) Romans tells us no one other than Jesus is sinless, I think you should read it.

So spare me from repeating myself and lets move forward

Tell me what problem you have with these responses.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/modu...mp;itemid=1826

http://www.tektonics.org/af/allsinners.html

stop playing ignorant.

jamal786 · (#61 (**permalink**))

@Nasima

Im glad we see things from a similar perspective. However, i wanted to say that christ and his teachings are not forgotton or ignored in Islam. It is just that he is seen as a prophet and not a god. The following are three good articles that discuss this issue.

CHRIST IN ISLAM
http://jamaat.net/cis/christintro.html

Divinity of Jesus
http://www.geocities.com/islamroots/...ityOfJesus.htm

THE "GOD" THAT NEVER WAS
http://jamaat.net/gtnw/god.html

Surah 3. The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran

42. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

43. "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

44. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;