THE ULTIMATE BELIEF SYSTEM - Page 2

Hamda · (#26 (**permalink**))

MY RESPONSE:

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I am truly astonished that you are asking this question. All the best posts I create in this forum are added to the thread I created which is the original THE ULTIMATE BELIEF SYSTEM.The only way you could have missed that thread is if you are posting blind in this forum. Either that or you are too dumb for words to properly express. What a ridiculous question!

WOOOOOOO

calm down

SORRY, not interested

didn't read the first thread

BLAH BLAH

you keep BLAHBING

Adrian7 · (#27 (**permalink**))

jamal786 wrote:

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Adrian7

Did mose not himself state that the scriptures were in danger of corruption by the people. Did the jews not murder prophets. Did jesus not preach that many christians would preach iniquity in his name. Did jesus not say "my father is greater than i", but christians continue to compare the two as equal??
Yes this is true, but did the corruption ofscriptures actually happen? Well, not according to the Koran, in addition to the verses I quoted in my previous post(6:154, 17:2, 5:46-47, 3:3-4, 5:13-15) the Koran also says this:

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Surah 10:94-"And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture before thee. Verily, the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee."

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Who are "those who read the Scripture before thee."? answer: Christians and Jews, why would Allah direct Mohammed and indeed all Muslims to corrupted scripture?Even if hewas not talking about Christians and Jews why would he directMohammed to any other source? Also as I mentioned in my previous post the bible has not been corrupted since the time of Mohammed because there are known and museum kept texts of the bible that predate Mohammed's birth such as theVaticanus( 325-350A.D.), Sinaiticus(4th century A.D.), Alexandrinus(450 A.D.),etc. All of which were probably Mohammed's own sources for the bible(translated into Arabic of course.) Ifwe, in modern times, use the same source biblical texts as Mohammed did over 1,000 years ago and he declared them to be the "guide to mankind" and to be used as references for Allah's truth then why would they be corrupt now? If anything one could easily request a direct translation from these older texts if one suspected corruption, but one thing is for sure neither Allah nor Mohammed saw any corruption in the bible, I mean unless they wanted their followers to follow corrupt text(a claim made almost exclusively by modern day Muslims).

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Did Jesus say my father is greater than I? He sure did, but not in the sense of his nature. Here is the verse:

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John 14:28-"You have heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming to you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

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The key word in the verse is "Greater" which seems to suggest that Jesus recognizes his inferiority to Yahweh and is therefore not equal, but is this what it really means? What the use of the word "Greater" is actually refering to is God's greater position or office than Jesus, because remember, Jesus came to serve and accepted the role of a servent(Phil. 2:5-8) meaning that Part of God's being(Yahweh) remained as master above all and part of God's being(Jesus) accepted the role of serving man for their salvation, obviously a master is "greater" than a servant in terms of position and office but not always, as in the case of God, in nature or character. A good example of the word "greater" is used in another part of the bible to mean greater in office or position is this verse:

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Genesis 41:40-"You [Joseph] shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I [Pharaoh] be GREATER than you,"

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Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by OFFICE or POSITION, but not NATURE. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph was the same, that is, human being.

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To better understand why we believe Jesus andYahweh are one I will refer to the Greek bible as it's vocabulary has greater diversity that will aid us in understanding this concept. In English the word life is used to describe all of a personsâ€™ being, body, soul and spirit, In Greek, however, we see something different and perhaps a bit clearer. The physical life is called â€œbiosâ€? where we get biology(study of life) from, the mind/soul is called â€œsucheâ€? where we get psychology(study of mind) from and finally there is â€œzoeâ€? which refers to the spirit. In Genesis 1:26 the Lord says â€œlet us create man in our image.â€? The "us" and "our"doesnot refer tomultiple Gods but insteadGodâ€™s being which consists of three Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit a concept he recreated in mankind(body, soul and spirit). Jesus was the Physical form of God and was placed in Mary to come into the world as a man and to live among men. If God came in all his glory we as fallen man would not understand him because after disobeying and being banished from the Garden of Eden the spirit(zoe) was deadened, the soul(suche) no longer understood nor desired the ways of God and the body(bios) expressed sin and notGod as it was originally suppose to. Because of this God sent the son(Jesus, his physical form) to earth so that he could dwell among mankind but still relay Godâ€™s revelations on terms our fallen beings can interpret and follow. Through Christ our spirits are reawakened and when we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us ourrevived spirits weeventually begin to understand and desire the ways of God and our bodies then begin to express God. This may seem a bit difficult to grasp if you are not in the faith(of Christ) but remember, Jesus is the one and only who can revive our deadened spirits through accepting him as our savior, without this redemption mankind lacks the complete ability to understand God through the mind or express God through the body. I am sure you accept the existence of your body and your mind(soul) but what about your spirit? Only Jesus can revive that for you and then you will truly be in the light.

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Tell me, have they failed in their duty to god?
Well judging by the Koran's regard of the bible as a "guide to mankind" and reference for Allah's revelations they, at the very least, succeeded in preserving God's word intact up until the time of the writing of the Koran and judging by the existence of preIslamic biblical text that matchs up with our current bibles, they continued to preserve it to the current day.

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You refer to NO corruptions in the bible. Do you really want me to list them? Even the christian scholars accept there are errors, contradictions and editions in the bible. These are even recorded in the bible footnotes itself.
Please do share that list with me, what makes you think I would not want to see it? Andmany Christians andnon-Christian scholars also support the fact of their preservation through the ages but if you have the evidence please share it so that I can be "enlightened."

Just to add..

Regarding your statement:

""Firstly this verse incorrectly denies Christ's divinity(atleast according to my faith) and it incorrectly identifies Mary as being part of the trinity when any Christian will tell you that Mary was a mortal woman, close to God, but a mortal woman and that the true trinity consists of The Father(Yaweh), The Son(Jesus), and the Holy Spirit not Mary. If the Koran is truly from God why would he not have known this? Does Allah make mistakes? If not then someone must have added this in therefore comprimising the Koran's status as "unaltered," either way this puts the Koran in a tight spot."" (ADRIAN)

If you are attempting to state errors in the Qur'an, then at least do a better job then that. Regarding the verse...:

5:116. "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

First, the verse does not mention the word trinity, the verse says that God asked Jesus whether he enjoined people to take him and his mother as gods besides God.
The bible does not mention the word Trinity either, so whats the big deal? I just used the word trinity to describe the concept the three parts of God's being.

Second, the Quran is not fabricating accusations by saying that Jesus and Mary have been regarded as gods by Christians. All Christians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, thus it is not very inaccurate to say that Christians have made Jesus a god.
Yes Jesus is God and you are right the Quran is not fabricationg accusations it is completely and utterly mistaken. Either Allah had a misunderstanding or Mohammed had another(incorrect) source, this does not mean thatthey purposely characterized Christian beliefs incorrectly of course, but either way it is wrong and the fact that it is wrong was and still is the main point, a point you have yet to address in the purportedly infallible Quran.

All Catholics call Mary 'mother of God' ....... if Mary was truly mother of God she would have to be a god herself, for how can a god be conceived except by another god?
This argument of yourssounds like a standard of Greek mythology, where does it say and by whose standards would Mary have to be a god? Remember Jesus is the physical expression or form of God and so what better way to live among men than being born of a mortal human being, true his placement in mary was through supernatural means but from then on Jesus would be born and live in a very human world in his only Godly way.

All Catholics pray directly to Mary, and that again implies that they have given her divine status.
In response to this statement I will direct you to these verses in the bible:
Mark 3:31-35 -And His mother and His brothers came, and standing outside, they sent word to Him and called Him. And a crowd sat around Him, and they said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers and Your sisters are outside seeking You. And He answered them and said, â€œWho is My mother and My brothers? And looking around at those sitting in a circle around Him, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers!â€? For whoever does the will of God, this one is My brother and sister and mother.

As you can see from the above verses Jesus himself did not give Mary any special recognition above other humans, in fact, he said : "whoever does the will of God, this one is My brother and sister and mother." So as you can see the ones closest to God are those who do his will and so by deifying Mary and anybody else beside Godthe Catholic church is wrong. There are significant differences in the beliefs of biblical Christians and Catholics and this is one of them, I for instance, believe in the worship and divinity of God and God alone.

To conclude, the Quran has not really misunderstood anything, what is stated in this verse is what Christians do and believe today.
Actually theQuran has misunderstoodbecause, as demonstrated above,what it claims isnot what is the core belief of Christians, also not even Catholics believe that Mary isa God or part of God but rather an intermediary between mankind and God.

""Also there are contradictions in the Koran concerning the timeframe in which Heaven and earth was created: Surahs 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 all claim that creation took place in six days but in Surah 41:9-12 creation is described as being completed in eight days. What happened? Different sources contributing different pieces of information perhaps?"" (ADRIAN)

YOUR confusion stems from a wrong interpretation of 41:9-12 , these verses read:

"Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up idols to rank with Him, though He is Lord of the universe."

He placed on it stabilizers (mountains), made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants.

Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."

Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient." 41:9-12

What these verses are saying is that the physical universe (the word earth is used in the Quran either to mean the planet earth, or as in this case to represent the physical universe) was created in two days and that the setting up of all the provisions necessary for life was completed inside four days. To put it in different words, the physical universe was created and its provisions set up inside four days.

YOUR error is that you added 2 plus 4 , whereas the wording of the verse indicates that the four days include the two days of its creation.

Then we are told that the completion of the creation of all seven universes (where our physical universe is the innermost) required two extra days, for a total of six days.

How about I elaborate on what you tried to demonstrate and we will see whois really mistaken, here arethe verses:

Surah 9-12- "Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals ? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

It says "Him Who created the earth in two Days" alright, now for the alledged area of confusion: "He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days."So where did I go wrong?It says he created the earth in two days, then he placed therein firm hills rising above it which indicates that the earth itself was finished and that an additional four days were used not an incorporated four days. So itappears as if he is saying that first he made the earth in two days then he made certain features of the earth in the next four days. 4+2=6, right? To say that these two events coincided would be like saying that in Genesis when God created earth he also created all the creatures and animals in the same day. If the first two days mentioned and the next four days mentioned coincide why not say in such a way that would reveal that? Anyway, he goes on to say that another two days were used to create the seven heavens, thats another two for our equation, so that the end result is 2+4+2=8. And as stated in my previous post this contradicts other verses in the Koran such as: Surahs 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 which all claim a six day creation period.

While we are on the subject of contradictions, here are a few more:

-Surah 79:27-30 Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the earth....

-Surah2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.

Which came first, heaven or earth? Surah 79:27-30 claims heaven came first but Surah 2:29 claims earth came first. That is the only real confusion I went through, determining which verse was right.

In addition thereare these little accidents:

In Surah 22:47, Allah's day equals 1000 human years, but in Surah 70:4, a day to Allah is reckoned as 50,000 human years.

So which is true? Also:

Surah 2:256 claims that there must be no compulsion in religion, yet Surah 8:38-39 commands Muslims to fight until all religion but Islam is done away with. Similarly, Surah 45:14 tells Muslims to forgive unbelievers, while Surah 9:29 commands them to fight unbelievers

Quranic mood swings perhaps???

Moreover, it must be noted that the "days" of creation are only used as a yardstick, they do not mean 24 earthly hours.
What relevence does this note have? Does it really matter how long a day was, the point is that no matter what unit was used to measure a day the Quran still gives different periods of creation(therefore a contradiction)within its own "infallible" pages.

""There are also certain scientific errors which reflect myth rather than revelation. Surah 18:86 claims that at sunset the sun submerges into a dark pool of water when we know that the what really happens is that the earth rotates and the part of the earth facing away from the sun is exposed to less light therefore causeing nighttime.""(ADRIAN)
Your question is about verse 86 of chapter 18, Surat Al-Kahf (The Cave), which means:

{Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: â€œO Dhul Qarnayn! [thou hast authority], either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.} (Al-Kahf 18:86)

Here the setting of the sun simply means, the place where â€œhe found it setâ€?, namely â€œa spring of murky water.â€? This need not necessarily mean a place where actually the sun went down; but a place where the sun seemed to go in; that is, it could be a place to the west where there was a spring of murky water. We can understand that Dhul Qarnayn, in one of his expeditions, had reached a place in the evening when the sun seemed to go into a pool in the west. We know that on a clear evening a person on the western shore of a sea or lake can see the sun as going down into the water. It is very clearly said, {wajadah taghrubu fi `aynin hamiâ€™atin (he found it setting in a spring of murky water)}

Here are the verses:

Surah 18:86, 90- "Until, when he reached THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found IT SET IN a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness"â€¦ "Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found IT RISING on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Yusuf Ali)

The text clearly says the Zul-Qarnain found THE PLACE where the sun actually sets and rises. Since the earth is a globe, and the sun millions of miles away from the earth (150 million kilometers on average over the year), the setting of the sun always appears to take place far away, somewhere on or behind the horizon. In phenomenological language it may still be acceptable to speak of "the place where the sun sets" when it is done from the view point of someone who is far away from this place. For example, a traveler could say that he was moving in direction of "where the sun is setting." However, the Quran goes beyond what is possible in phenomenological language when it states that Zul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets, i.e. the Quran is speaking of a human being who traveled to the place of the setting of the sun. Such a statement is wrong in any kind of language, since such a place does not exist on this earth. This is a serious error that was introduced into the Quran because the author mistook a legend to be literal and historical truth.

Ibn Ishaq, in his Sirat Rasulullah, recorded a poem composed by Tubba which said:

Dhuâ€™l-Qarnayn before me was a Muslim
Conquered kings thronged his court,
East and west he ruled, yet he sought
Knowledge true from a learned sage.
HE SAW WHERE THE SUN SINKS FROM VIEW
IN A POOL OF MUD AND FETID SLIME.
Before him Bilqis my fatherâ€™s sister
Rule them until the hoopoe came to her.)
(Alfred Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad [Oxford University Press, Karachi, tenth impression 1995], p. 12; capital emphasis ours)

Taken at face value, this poem is part of the evidence that Muhammad took over a legendary story known to the Arabs before the revelation of the Quran.

[Side remark: Note, however, that in what is classified as a pre-Islamic poem, the word Muslim is used. This either suggests that the poem was manufactured (made up by Muslims after Muhammad claimed prophethood), or that the term was already in use prior to Muhammad's time. If the latter, then this provides further evidence of Muhammad taking over ideas from the diverse religious groups of his time, erroneously assuming that these terms were divinely appointed or revealed. He then proceeded to use this term in relation to the biblical prophets, thinking that this is what they used or how they viewed themselves as well]

"The sun and the moon precisely computedâ€¦â€¦." 55:5

The earth spins on it's axis once every 24 hours. If it didn't spin, the oceans would empty all their waters and if it spun much faster it would disperse into empty space.

The spinning movement is also responsible for the night and day, without which one half of the earth would be under continuous sunlight and heat up excessively while the other half would be submerged in total darkness and freeze to death.

The Quran speaks of the spinning of the Earth by saying:

"He (God) coils the night onto the day and coils the day onto the night" 39:5

The word "coils" is quite accurate in describing the spinning movement.

The earth rotates round the sun once every 365.25 days. Whilst doing so it is tilted on it's axis at an angle of 33 degrees. As a result , the seasons occur making it possible for the habitation of the planet. If the earth was not tilted on its axis the poles would have been submerged in continuous cold darkness preventing the seasonal thaw of the polar ice. The accumulating ice would eventually result in unshifting frozen poles and little water elsewhere.
Thanks for the little lesson in the planet earth and the effects of its orbit around the sun, but after reading that I have to ask the question: Where did you learn all of that? It sure was not from the Quran as it provides information contrary to what you just wrote. The Quran in many places states that the sun, moon and stars are traveling on set courses:

Surah 2:258-Have you not considered him (Namrud) who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die, he said: I give life and cause death. Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun TO RISE FROM THE EAST, then make it rise from the west; thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people.

Surah 14:33-And He has made subservient to you the sun and the moon pursuing their courses, and He has made subservient to you the night and the day

Also the whole idea of the sun rising and setting(rather than earth orbiting it)is mention several times as well as the idea that the sun orbits:

Surah 18:17-"And thou couldst see the sun, AS IT ROSE, move away from their Cave on the right, AND WHEN IT SET, turn away from them on the left; and they were in a spacious hollow thereof. This is among the Signs of ALLAH. He whom ALLAH guides is alone rightly guided; but he whom HE leaves to go astray, for him thou wilt find no helper or guide."

Surah 20:130-"Bear patiently then what they say, and glorify thy Lord with HIS praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and glorify HIM in the hours of the night and all parts of the day, that thou mayest find true happiness."

Surah 21:33-"And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit."

Surah 39:5-"He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?"

So again and again Allah describes the sun as rising and setting as well as "floating in an orbit." True the whole idea of rising and setting could be in phenomenological in nature but judging by the statements made in Surah 18:86 &90 it appears to reflect a literal belief in a rising and setting sun, an idea that does not match up with the information you yourself gave me. Also the idea of the sun orbiting is completely far-fetched and unmistakable as an error.

""Surahs 16:16, 21:31, and 31:10 claim that the Allah threw down mountains to prevent earth from shaking or wobbling"" (ADRIAN)

You may not know that it is accepted that the mountains steady the earth in its rotation.

Scientists confirm that mountains have below them roots that extend deep into the earth's surface and stabilize the earth's crust. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains, having deep roots and being stabilizers for the earth, has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960â€™s. These roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", like the Qur'an describes it.

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth.
I must admit I did not know too much about what you revealed on this particular point, what I do know however is this:

"The surface of the earth was shaped by the action of the mantle moving very slowly below the crust. Without this movement, erosion would wear down mountains to the level of the sea within a space of a mere 100 million years. The surface of the earth would then be a vast, featureless Plain, unbroken by mountains and valleys. There would be no volcanoes, earthquakes, or plate tectonics. TheEarth would indeed be a very uninteresting place in which to live-that is life could exist under these conditions." -(pg. 45, Plate Tectonics: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Earth, by: Jon Erickson)

So interestingly enough this book on plate tectonics seems to indicate that it is the earth that stabilizes mountains rather than the other way around and that life could exist on a mountainless earth, also it appears that mountains are created through activity below the earth's surface and not byAllah throwing them down to earth as is stated in Surahs 16:16, 21:31, 31:10, and 78:6-7

Also there is this bit of information:

"Most relief gloves and relief maps are greatly exaggerated in vertical scale. For a true-scale profile around the earth, we might draw a chalkline circle 6.4m(21ft) in diameter, representing earth's circumference on a scale of 1:2,000,000. A chalkline 1cm(3/8in) wide would include within its limits no only the highest point on earth, Mount Everest 8840m(29,000ft), but also the deepest known ocean trenches, somewhat deeper than 11,000m(36,000ft)."-(pg. 209, Modern Physical Geology 2nd ed., by: Arthur N. Strahler and Alan H. Strahler)

So as you can see mountains make up a miniscule part of Earth's total area, it seems unlikely that they would have such a big role in earth's rotation considering they are also prone to wear and besides, do other planets, such as Jupiter and Saturn, which are mainly gas wobble when they rotate? But in any case I would still like to read about the theory that supports the idea of mountains and mountain roots acting as stabilizers if you could provide a source or reference to that theory.

""Surah 88:20 claims that the earth was created flat. This last point of the earth being created flat, mountains used as anchors and the sun retiring to a pool of water."" (ADRIAN)

In Noble Verse 79:30, the Arabic word "dahaha" actually means extended (to a wide expanse). The word literally means formed in "round shape" or "egg shape", thus supporting the accepted shape of the earth.

It is true that the word "sutihat" is from the root word "sataha" which usually means "to flatten". The earth had gone through shapings and formations. It is quite possible that Allah Almighty in Noble Verses 88:17-20 was referring to the initial creation of the land where the earth was *possibly* flat.

So when Allah Almighty said that the earth "sutihat" in Noble Verses 88:17-20, it doesn't really prove that the earth is not round, because these Noble Verses are not the only ones talking about and describing the earth in the Noble Quran.

However, as the verse actually says: "At the earth how it is spread out (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched..." The stretching and the expanding of the earth to make it livable is what Allah Almighty referred to when He said the earth "sutihat".

Have the continents not been stretched out around the globe of the earth?
It isclaimed that Surah 79:30 (based upon what has been shown to be a mistranslation of the word dahaha) states that the earth is egg-shaped. The claim is that this statement shows that the Qurâ€™an gives advanced knowledge of the slightly non-spherical shape of the earth. However, the earth is an oblate spheroid (having an equatorial radius greater than the polar radius, i.e. a â€œsquashedâ€? sphere). A birdâ€™s egg, the type which can at least be inferred from other Quranic usage of the term â€œeggâ€?, is a prolate spheroid (having an equatorial radius less than the polar radius, i.e. an â€œelongatedâ€? sphere). Thus, the earthâ€™s shape actually departs from the shape of a true sphere in the opposite direction from what is claimed by some Muslim apologists.

Also there are other verses in the Quran that refer to a flat earth such as:

Surah 2:22-"Who made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to ALLAH, while you know."

Do you know of anyspherical or rather oblate spheroidbeds? All thebeds I have ever seen, slept inor heard of have always been Flat

Surah20:53-"Who has laid out the earth as a carpet for you and has traced highways on it for you, and sent down water from the sky, We have brought forth every sort of plant with it, of various types"

Again have you seenspherical carpets? Even round carpets are flat. Now I realize that it could be interpreted in a metaphorical sense but how about this one:

Surah22:65-"Do you not see that Allah has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the earth and the ships running in the sea by His command? And He withholds the heaven FROM FALLING ON THE EARTH except with His permission; most surely Allah is Compassionate, Merciful to men."

How could the heavens fall on a spherical earth? But on a flat earth with "the heaven a roof,"and the sun sinking and rising from a sea of water on earth this is possible.

""All indicate that the Koran was supplemented and partially devised based on myths, traditions and various sources rather than true revelations"" (ADRIAN)

So do you now retract this statement as your so called "contradictions" are effectively refuted. As i have said above, there is a challenge to prove any point of the Qur'an wrong, and this has not been met in 1400 years and i can not see you bringing some point that has not already been refuted. Though please do try!

According to the famous physicist and Nobel Prize winner, Albert Einstein, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." Let us therefore study the Qur'an, and analyze whether Qur'an and Modem Science are compatible or incompatible?

The Qur'an correlates with science, and introduced many scientific facts to mankind which are in use today. The Qur'an is not a book of science but a book of 'signs', i.e. ayats. There are more than six thousand 'signs' in the Qur'an of which more than a thousand deal with science.

Actually the Qur'an contains several outright scientific errors:

In Surah 23:14, the embryo is said to be formed from a joining of the sperm with a clot of blood. This incorrect view entirely ignores the equally important presence of the female ova (egg), and the process of fertilisation which occurs between the egg and the sperm. Further, in Surah 86:6, the Qurâ€˜an informs us that semen originates in a region of the body between the kidneys and the spine, which is obviously wrong, but which yet reflects a widespread belief of the time which originated with the Greek physician Hippocrates in the 5th century BC, and continued after him for many centuries.

In Surah 25:61, the Qurâ€™an intimates that the moon gives its own light. In this verse, the word muneer is used to describe the light of the moon. The phrase used here in the Arabic is â€œfeeha sirajan waqamaran muneeranâ€?. It appears as the bold portion of the verse, â€œBlessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving lightâ€œ. In this verse, the sun is referred to as the â€œsirajâ€?, a word meaning â€œa bright lamp or lightâ€?. However, â€œmuneerâ€? is an adjective which describes the light produced by an object.

In Surah 57:25, many Muslim apologists will claim that the reference to Allah â€œsending down ironâ€? is a miraculous foreknowledge of modern scientific understanding concerning the appearance of iron in the solar system. Since the latest cosmological theories state that iron entered the solar system from outside, as the sun is not hot enough to produce iron in situ, the â€œsending downâ€? of iron reflects this. Of course, such an interpretation, which presupposes the truth of the evolutionary bases which underlie the scientific theory, flatly contradicts the instantaneous creation taught by the Qurâ€™an (Surah 2:117) where Allah says, â€œBe! And it is.â€? Even disregarding this, the argument is flawed if we assume the cosmological theories to be true. These theories state that the solar system formed from the gravitationally-induced aggregation of pre-existing elements (from the Big Bang, previous supernovae, take your pick) which over time formed the planets, moons, the sun, etc. Now, if iron were present in the solar system at the time of its theoretical formation, then it would have been incorporated into the earth at that time. Yet, the phraseology â€œwe sent downâ€? (using the Arabic term nazal, meaning â€œto bring down, to cast downâ€?) presupposes that the earth was already in existence at the time of the sending down of iron (else there would be nothing to send it down to, as the plain understanding of the Arabic clearly says). Hence, the apologistsâ€™ argument as an attempt to ingratiate Islam to modern science does not stand firm in the face of reasoned investigation.

Again I reiterate the Quran has some basis in myth:

The story of an entire village of people who were turned into apes because they broke the sabbath by fishing was a popular legend in Muhammad's day (Surah 2:65; 7:163-166).

In what is called the "Rip Van Winkle" story, seven men and their animals slept for 309 years in a cave and then woke up perfectly fine (Surah 18:9-26)! This was also a popular story in Arabia at and before Mohammed's time.

The fable of the pieces of four dead, cut-up birds getting up and flying was well known in Muhammad's time (Surah 2:260).

In addition the Quran has several historical inaccuracies:

In Surah 28:38, Pharaoh (the king of Egypt) orders Haman to begin making baked bricks in a kiln out of clay, this during the time of Moses. Historical evidence demonstrates that the Egyptians at this time built their buildings out of two materials: cut stone and sun-dried bricks. The Egyptians would not have baked their bricks (a practice not introduced to Egypt until the Roman era), but made them and dried them in the heat of the sun.

In Surah 20:87 and 20:95, the Jews are said to have made the golden calf idol at the behest of the Samaritans, a group of people who did not exist until around the time of the Post-Exilic period, nearly eight centuries after the Exodus.

we note that in Surah 9:30, the Qur'an attributes to the Jews the belief that Ezra (Uzair) was the son of God. This is not a belief which has been expounded by Jewish theologians and teachers, however, and is thus another error which Allah purportedly makes concerning the beliefs of a non-Muslim group.

Also, we must note the Quranic fascination with referring to Jesus as "Isa". Muslims maintain, based upon the authority of the Qur'an, that Isa is the true name for Jesus in the Arabic language. However, this is not the case. Instead, "Yasu" is the Arabic form of Jesus, (itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew "Yeshua"). The Arabic form of Jesus is clearly shown to us to have been "Yasu" among Arabians who lived even before Mohammed's time.

Also Muslim scholar Ali Dashti made this comment concerning the Quranic text:

"The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of number and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.....To sum up, more than one hundred Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted."

And finally the Quran itself claims to have been revised:

the Quran states in Surah 22:52 that Allah removed Satanâ€™s verses in the Quran. (One wonders, how Satan got his verses into the Quran in the first place). Also in Surah 2:106 and 16:101 Allah confirms that he removed some of his initial verses and replaced them with better verses. (One wonders, why Allah had to change/improve/polish his own works).

I share with you the knowledge my research has led me to, and above all I must say may Jesus's name always be praised. -Adrian7

*sources:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Science/sun_set.html
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch2.html(source)
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Shamoun/whale_nun.htm
Modern Physical Geology 2nd edition.

Plate Tectonics:Unraveling the Mysteries of the Earth.

fin

JoshuaStone · (#28 (**permalink**))

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jamal786 wrote:

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Firstly,... it is you that claims they will "put muslims to shame".

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MY RESPONSE:

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What the hell are you talking about here? Bring up a quote of mine where I wrote "put muslims to shame". I say you are a liar and I never wrote that! If I did I most certainly would have used a capital "M" in Muslims for that is the way I write the word Muslim. So if you cannot come up with a direct quote where I wrote "put muslims to shame" then I have all the evidence I need that

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(((YOU ARE A LIAR!!!))))

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or

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(((YOU ARE A STUPID FOOL!!)))

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Once proven a liar or a fool only a fool will want to learn anything from you!

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jamal786 · (#29 (**permalink**))

JoshuaStone...

It is very clear what you said.. and i quote...

"Be ready to be put to shame, all you who are believing in false religions!"

"Watch out all you false religious believers for this guy is about to put you to shame!"

no matter how much you slander and curse, these are...your words.. not mine!

It is YOU that claims: "i was giving you the opportunity to PROVE that your religion is the true religion to all the people you and your kind are certain are following false religions." (JoshuaStone)

I've said it once and i'll say it again; I state that god revealed through the prophet to ALL mankind, many things including those that man previously DID NOT KNOW. As i have said, the Qur'an has its own falsification test which you may challenge, and this was set out in the Qur'an 1400 years ago, so you DID NOT have to wait for me to make this claim before attempting to meet the challenge.... ..But alas, coincidentaly you have ignored it!

Therefore you need not "give" me any oppoortunity, as the Qur'an "gave" you ALL mankind an opportunity to prove it wrong 1400 years ago, and this has still not been achieved.

You claim people "are following false religions", but you make the grave error of failing to prove this to be so. Effectivly you are on 100% unsubstantiated ground, and if YOU was in a court battle i am sure you would be laughed out of court for lack of evidence.

The fact remains that we both know that you (who claims to have the ultimate belief of which you handpicked from the bits of other religions) cannot pass any of the Qur'ans falsification tests, or prove it not to be the word of god.

Therefore it is YOU that must come back when you have something better to say. In the meantime you can continue to seek solace in your "ultimate belief" which you have self-created.

jamal786 · (#30 (**permalink**))

Adrian7...

Regarding bible errors and corruptions, you said.

"Please do share that list with me, what makes you think I would not want to see it? And many Christians and non-Christian scholars also support the fact of their preservation through the ages but if you have the evidence please share it so that I can be "enlightened.""

This is a photographic reproduction from the R.S.V. 1971.

Note the underlined page iii, paragraph six of the PREFACE of the RSV reads;

"THE KING JAMES VERSION (alternative description of AV) HAS WITH GOOD REASON BEEN TERMED 'THE NOBLEST MONUMENT OF ENGLISH PROSE.â€™ ITS REVISERS IN 1881 EXPRESSED ADMIRATION FOR 'ITS SIMPLICITY, ITS DIGNITY, ITS POWER, ITS HAPPY TURNS OF EXPRESSION ... THE MUSIC OF ITS CADENCES, AND THE FELICITIES OF ITS RHYTHM.â€™ IT ENTERED, AS NO OTHER BOOK HAS, INTO THE MAKING OF THE PERSONAL CHARACTER AND THE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS OF THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING PEOPLES. WE OWE TO IT AN INCALCULABLE DEBT."

Can you, dear reader, imagine a more magnificent tribute.... yet in the very same breath they say:

"YET THE KING JAMES VERSION HAS GRAVE DEFECTS." And, "THAT THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS AS TO CALL FOR REVISION . . ."

Furthermore..

Deutronomy 34:5-10 states: Moses died... the lord buried him... no-one knows his place of burial...isreal mourned him for 30 days...

HOW could moses possibly write about his own death, burial, and mourning... if he was already dead??

Therefore he could not have wrote this, as people cannot write their own arbituaries after their death.

Or do you still say that moses wrote this book, if so, how do you account for 34:5-10??

Also...

From The Scoffield Bible:

A. "1 John 5:7-8: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one1."

Footnote 1: "It is generally agreed that this verse has no manuscriptural authority AND HAS BEEN INSERTED."

B. Regarding Mark 16:9-20:

"Verses 9-20 ARE NOT FOUND in the two most ancient manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus; others have them with partial omissions and variations. But the passage is quoted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus in the second or third century."

So, then, if "Everyone accepts thess verses as insertions", my question is, "WHO inserted it? By WHOSE AUTHORITY did they insert it...God's? Did GOD ALMIGHTY reveal to some scholar/translator, "Hey, put this part in there, too."??

If the insertion cannot be shown to be of Divine Inspiration, then the insertion is a CORRUPTION, would you agree?

Now, I am not saying that it is, in fact, a corruption. I am indirectly asking you to present some evidence that would support the insertion being Divinely Inspired.

If this task cannot be completed it is because the "inserted" verses are in fact "additions" and therefore corruptions. Therefore according to Revelations 22:18-19, plagues have/will be added to the authors of these additions.

Last but not least...

Heaven, no man hath ascended JOHN 3:13

IS Contradicted by.

2 KINGS 2:11 Elijah ascended, and GENESIS 5:24 Enoch ascended.

or,

Jesus lost "None" of his disciples JOHN 18:9

Is Contradicted by.

He lost only "One" JOHN 17:12

Or,

ALL are sinners 2 CHRONICLES 6:36

Is Contradicted by:

"Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin. . ." 1 John 3:9

jamal786 · (#31 (**permalink**))

I'll look at your Qur'an "contradictions later...

Since it appears you are using www.answering-islam.org as your source, i will not even waste time on them now. If you had searched this board you would know that that anti-islamic site has been laughed out of this forum many times over.

There are even sites such as http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm and http://www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm which refute its wild unsubstantiated claims. I suggest you search these sites and then repost with whatever remains unanswered and at least a substantiated point!

"This page is solely concerned with exposing the false claims of contradiction in the Quran, as found on various anti-Quranic sites (e.g. the site 'Answering Islam')."