The Afrocentric Atheist...Can it Exist??? - Page 2

Black Lion · (#26 (**permalink**))

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Take a baby. A new born, new to the world, eyes still unfocussed baby.

He doesn't believe in a damn thing. Not Judaism, Buddism, Unicorns or faries. He isn't monotheist or polytheist. He can't even control his ass let alone decide his concept of the world. The baby is an atheist.

.lol. Was wondering if you'd post, my comments were based around this. If someone dosent indoctrinate the child then on a desert island on his own with no one to bring him into any theology he will become savage. He will conduct himself like an animal, again a flaw in the theory of evolution showing that man can regress completely without a construct, that the western interpretation of the evolution of ''modern'' man and his technological gadgetry and science has nothing to do with the furtherment of the inner faculties of man, as it is external and so isn't ''evolution'' at all.... Until he finds a female somewhere on the island and raises children they will have to start again from scratch they won't be Man and Woman until they begin to strive to be so, until generation after generation sets down an understanding or a way/means for them to develop an inner faculty that asks of them to strive to become something they cannot comprehend as of yet, to realize the 'god' within themselves as well as that within nature and their surroundings in order to work with it and not against it as a savage otherwise would.

My argument is that people seem to have forgotten the purpose of religion, to lift or attempt to lift man from savagery any religion that doesn't do what it is supposed to is essentially flawed as the core purpose of religion is as said, to reunite wo/man with God, the christians attempt this through Christ but (in my opinion) do not realize themselves as him and so haven't strived to be anything more than themselves, the spiritual doctrines of the main religions seem to be missing making them corrupt.... leading people into a disgruntled mentality regarding religion in general where other understandings don't fail their purpose.

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2) Non atheists can not, it seems to me, understand the concept of atheism. You keep on describing the viewpoint of a belief in nothing, in terms of being another religion. This is nonsensical. There is no ethos or creed or even proscribed set of beliefs involved in being an atheist (beyond the obvious). There are no groups, to have them would be contrary to the point. No two atheists would have arrived at the same conclusions in the same fashion or even believe themselves in the same things.

Given that there is nobody to pray to, no groups to indoctrinate one, no holy books to quote as unquestioned faith, no missionaries in African history, no mystique or languages to take on, no names to wash yours away with etc etc.... only a decision that an individual makes about a specific thing; how can it be a credo contray to Afrocentrism when it isn't even a credo to begin with?

Exactly, it is ''nothing'' which is why it cannot survive past itself, a parent cannot teach atheism to his or her child if they did it would have to be based off of the rationalization of God and the universe as mentioned, that everything is somehow explainable and it would have to done so in a country, a society where theres something in place of religion.

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3) One doesn't have to believe in a god to observe the ravages of europeans on Africa and Africans throughout history. One doesn't need a God to see themselves as African and decide Europe is not the center of the world or see things as an African observer. The very definition of Afrocentric.

No. Because there is something already in place where religion would otherwise be, religion is held separate from social affairs in the west where a rationalized left brained mentality is promoted, they couldn't live by religion and gave it up in the middle ages. To be African on the other hand is to be Igbo, to be Yoroba, Zulu and so on. Our problem on the continent is that we aren't abiding by the cultural values that were exsistant pre colonialism (place emphasis on that), we would otherwise have abided by rules and laws within Yoroban religious theology, within Zulu/Shonan theology, traded within them, went about technological advance with them, went to war with them and so on.

To be Afro-centric is to survive in the face of westernization (white supremacy) to help undo what has/is being done and raise children who are well equipped enough to do the same. Of course a person can be atheist and concern themselves with the cause but theres being an atheist, as someone who isn't interested in religion and therefore uses (western) societal standards and culture to base themselves off of and someone who would defend their stance, ''I don't believe in God because....'' which would then need filling in with, the big bang theory or exault science in place of religion in order to reason with the issue, one would be an athiest and the other would be more agnostic, wouldn't have some theory formed around their disbelief in religion and therefore wouldn't avoid it or risk passing that on to their children as they would then take to western social constucts in place of an African outlook proper.

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4) It seems amusing to me to see especially people of Abrahamic faiths question atheism as anti African when they won't back up their own convictions and at least believe in an African system. Those who would follow their invasionary religious masters and call voodun or animism pagan faiths and heathen or infidel peoples have no business questioning those who stand aside from any beliefs at all.

Same boat I agree, none of them are African what so ever and have no place on the continent or perpetuating a problem within our communities.

5) My last and sort of unrelated bit, why do people confuse theism with the origin of the universe? Surely that can't be the only reason you believe in an elabourate set of proscribed and drawn out complicated beliefs? Here's a few things for general info

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a) Not all atheists believe in the big bang. If they all did then that would be a common belief wouldn't it! The big bang is not the conerstone of the atheist religion (there being no such thing after all) so why theists always step to me with that is beyond me.

Again, westernization, science has allowed for the rationalization of religion so yes, the big bang is the corner stone for many ''practicing'' atheists... atheists who would defend their stance on their disbelief in religion.

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b) The big bang and abiogenesis are two seperate concepts. If you need help, ask lol

big bang theory n. A cosmological theory holding that the universe originated approximately 20 billion years ago from the violent explosion

abiogenesis n. The supposed development of living organisms from nonliving matter.

Please explain what Hawkins and his chums are theorizing now... then continue on how it is Afro-centric and not western (white supremacist).

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c) As an atheist myself I'm far far less concerned about the origin of the universe or even of life than I am over how I decide and govern things for myself. Secular belief can be summed up as a decision to act for oneself as opposed to acting in fear of a magical deity. I don't bleat for salvation in an afterlife I don't believe exists. I am under no geis to be pacifist or violent in needs of a imaginary force who speaks to me through other human writings and people. I (me one) decide what I'm going to do to improve my short life now and later. I'm struggling to see self determination and afrocentrism as oppossing forces here but perhaps you'll help me?

.lol. Here is why I was wondering whether you'd post in this thread or avoid it completely as you are an atheist, not just someone who is loose with the term. You contradict yourself in stating that you aren't bothered and yet are somehow able to break down the latest theory on abiogenesis and it not having anything to do with the big bang... you can't defend western concepts and call yourself Afro centric. Simple. Hopefully you wouldn't mind your children taking to a Traditional African religion or would you feel let down by them and their, ''bleating for salvation'' their belief in, ''imaginary'' forces and so on?

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e) In any case, even if there were, atheism doesn't prevent you from being human and because of that won't stop you being evil. Humans can be evil no matter what they believe or subscribe to. Claiming moral superiority over a set of beliefs is redundant. It's as redundant as me claiming Christians did xyz so they're evil or muslims did abc.

Here is where people feel disgruntled, that hopeless disparity I was talking about... religion is supposed to be about self furtherment the three main religions have failed in that regard. Buddhism involves cultivation of self for a specific end goal concerned with the spiritual evolution of mankind as were many of the practices of pre colonial Africa where even the buildings we built with an understanding of the stars, energies in the earth and so on. You could well do as the west is doing and promote a separatism between religion and the rules and laws governing society but it would result in your falling into savagery as is seen in the west where people aren't striving to cultivate themselves as a religious/spiritual based culture would otherwise demand.

Personally find it baffling how people could assume that for thousands of years our ancestors were somehow fooling themselves in practices that did nothing for them/us, our spirituality is inherent we wont be free without a belief in or understanding of it. Ultimately the aim of Afro-centrism is to free ourselves from the west (and other vices) well enough to then rebuild the continent as a whole. How does atheism or faith in any foreign religion (or culture) help us achieve that?

Afriki · (#27 (**permalink**))

maann..I was really going to stay out of this thread because I was getting frustrated , but I see a light of hope that my views are shared in The Watcher's post so I'll be baaaccck..get ready. lol.

Also, Black Lion...I'm not taking anything personal. I hope nobody thinks that. I am pretty easy going and it takes a bit to get be up. I'm just passionate about certain things and can always appreciate a good debate so no hurt feelings here

Shemsi en Tehuti · (#28 (**permalink**))

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Originally Posted by The Watcher

Take a baby. A new born, new to the world, eyes still unfocussed baby.

He doesn't believe in a damn thing. Not Judaism, Buddism, Unicorns or faries. He isn't monotheist or polytheist. He can't even control his ass let alone decide his concept of the world. The baby is an atheist.

1) YOU have to indoctrinate a baby into a particular religion or set of beliefs. Everything a child learns comes from adults. That that they question, they do so only because adults question or do not take seriously. They follow your lead. Hence so many initiation rites for all organised religions based around babys. You label and begin the brainwashing process on a child before it can even decide for itself.

I would say your argument is compelling, if not for the fact that a baby has very little reasoning capability. I agree that it is the social constructs of the adults culturizing the child that determines most of the core precepts they believe. However, leaving religion alone, all groups of humanity has at one time questioned where we have come from and have reasoned it through in one way or another. At some point when that child comes to an age of reason, he or she will question its origin, and from the traditional African perspective that origin is "God".

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Originally Posted by The Watcher

Given that there is nobody to pray to, no groups to indoctrinate one, no holy books to quote as unquestioned faith, no missionaries in African history, no mystique or languages to take on, no names to wash yours away with etc etc.... only a decision that an individual makes about a specific thing; how can it be a credo contray to Afrocentrism when it isn't even a credo to begin with?

As always, quite insightful. Reading your words alone, you make a great amount of sense. How can the nonbelief of any credo go against the particular credo of Afrocentrism? It doesn't, and this is not what I meant to impart if that is what you took away from my post. My personal thoughts are that in order to be an atheist, one has to adopt an Indo-European definition of "God" over the classical African concept of God having Oneness with Nature and the Universe.

A parallel example of this would be to re-define the concept of gravity. Instead of professing the intrinsic "pull" amongst all matter in the Universe, this "pull" is reclassified as the "will of God". Just as it is obvious that physical matter is "pulled" towards each other, it is just as obvious that humanity had to have an origin. In my opinion, the atheist would be equivalent to the person stating that "gravity doesn't exist" due to the faulty definition of gravity, instead of interrogating the fundamental precepts governing their mode of thinking in the first place.

umbrarchist · (#29 (**permalink**))

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Take a baby. A new born, new to the world, eyes still unfocussed baby.

He doesn't believe in a damn thing. Not Judaism, Buddism, Unicorns or faries. He isn't monotheist or polytheist. He can't even control his ass let alone decide his concept of the world. The baby is an atheist.

I don't agree. The baby is an AGNOSTIC.

An atheist is a person that BELIEVES that there is no God.

Agnostic is NO KNOWLEDGE.

Atheist is NO GOD.

um

Afriki · (#30 (**permalink**))

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Originally Posted by Black Lion

[size="2"].lol. Was wondering if you'd post, my comments were based around this. If someone dosent indoctrinate the child then on a desert island on his own with no one to bring him into any theology he will become savage. He will conduct himself like an animal, again a flaw in the theory of evolution showing that man can regress completely without a construct, that the western interpretation of the evolution of ''modern'' man and his technological gadgetry and science has nothing to do with the furtherment of the inner faculties of man, as it is external and so isn't ''evolution'' at all.... Until he finds a female somewhere on the island and raises children they will have to start again from scratch they won't be Man and Woman until they begin to strive to be so, until generation after generation sets down an understanding or a way/means for them to develop an inner faculty that asks of them to strive to become something they cannot comprehend as of yet, to realize the 'god' within themselves as well as that within nature and their surroundings in order to work with it and not against it as a savage otherwise would.

I do not agree that this is the work of religion. It is the work of cultural structure, which I do agree is near impossible to create from scratch (as advanced as the ones we have today after many years of history). Religion is only ONE out of many makeups for a cultural structure. It’s easy for someone who is religious to bestow so much importance on religion, but for those of us who are not religious and who clearly fit in with society and are productive and “un-savage” we are proof that religion is not the end-all to savagery.
And I don’t believe man would regress completely w/out the benefit of societal structures. That’s a bit exaggerating. You cannot compare a man today w/out societal structures to early man. Physically they are undeniably different so that alone debunks the theory of total regression w/out culture, or as you said, religion.

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Exactly, it is ''nothing'' which is why it cannot survive past itself, a parent cannot teach atheism to his or her child.

Exactly. Atheism is not something that is taught (usually) or can be learned. So then how can a nation influence this very personal, very independent state of though? How can it be "Western" if it does not belong to anyone's culture?

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it would have to be based off of the rationalization of God and the universe as mentioned, that everything is somehow explainable

Or that some things are unexplainable...which IMO as an Atheist is the only definite truth. Everything else is he said/she said/God said heresaid.

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No. Because there is something already in place where religion would otherwise be, religion is held separate from social affairs in the west where a rationalized left brained mentality is promoted, they couldn't live by religion and gave it up in the middle ages. To be African on the other hand is to be Igbo, to be Yoroba, Zulu and so on. Our problem on the continent is that we aren't abiding by the cultural values that were exsistant pre colonialism (place emphasis on that), we would otherwise have abided by rules and laws within Yoroban religious theology, within Zulu/Shonan theology, traded within them, went about technological advance with them, went to war with them and so on.

-IMO this idea (which is not yours alone so I’m not picking on you) sends the message that Africans are and should be unchanging and unchanged by the goings on in the world, or remain stagnant, which is both unrealistic to expect (especially from African diasporics as well as most Africans in general) and a bit condescending to the sensibilities, potential, and mobility of the African people.

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To be Afro-centric is to survive in the face of westernization (white supremacy) to help undo what has/is being done and raise children who are well equipped enough to do the same. Of course a person can be atheist and concern themselves with the cause but theres being an atheist, as someone who isn't interested in religion and therefore uses (western) societal standards and culture to base themselves off of and someone who would defend their stance, ''I don't believe in God because....'' which would then need filling in with, the big bang theory or exault science in place of religion in order to reason with the issue, one would be an athiest and the other would be more agnostic, wouldn't have some theory formed around their disbelief in religion and therefore wouldn't avoid it or risk passing that on to their children as they would then take to western social constucts in place of an African outlook proper.

I think we need to stop giving Europeans so much credit in the makings of this world. The world is what it is and we have ALL contributed to what it is today whether we were at the bottom or the top. To do what you suggested (to undo what has been done) is to go BACKWARDS. I think this is a dangerous thinking for African people and is another reason why I disagree with you all’s definition of Afro-centrism.
Also, I think it a bit unfair to juxtapose historical pre-colonial (and you would need to go faaaaaaaar back to find a pre-colonial African majority.) African culture and thought with present-day post-colonial Africa, and especially the African diaspora.
This idea to get back to a purely African roots in which everything is untouched, unsoiled from any non-African influence and any non-African contact or exchange is idealistic, unrealistic, and irrelevant to today.
I am pretty sure that most all African peoples on this planet, diasporic and otherwise, would NOT meet these extremist requirements to becoming what you consider to be an African-centered, focused, minded etc. (I refuse to use “that” word because I disagree with definitions associated with it). Accordingly this thread would be better worded "The Afrocentric...Does it exist?"
Culture is a wonderful thing. It involves the dichotomy of constant and change. Tradition and fad, history and futurity.

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Again, westernization, science has allowed for the rationalization of religion so yes, the big bang is the corner stone for many ''practicing'' atheists... atheists who would defend their stance on their disbelief in religion.

I don’t know crap about Big Bang to be honest, and the only evolution theories I support are the ones with substantial and somewhat recent information. All I know is that logically, I DO NOT believe that there is anyone out there for the benefit of man. IMO man is the only one concerned with man, no one and nothing else is concerned with our existence except for us. Why do you think many religions (minus quite a few African religions that practice animism in which nature/animals hold a higher regard than man) puts man at the center of everything? Who puts man as the image of God? Man as the root of good and evil? Man who has been on this planet for a blip of Earth’s existence after so many species have come and gone, as we will also?
My personal stance, and probably the stance of many other atheists does not need to be defended with or replaced by something else (like the Big Bang theory) because once again:
It is NOT a belief in science (or something else) that makes us atheist...it is a disbelief in a higher conscious power. I believe man doesn’t know a damn thing. And I am comfortable with that belief. I don’t need to know anything about the creation of man (actually If I could only know one thing it would be the creation of everything before man) in order to live a fulfilled life. It is not for me to ever know and I have the highest respect for that.

abdurratln · (#31 (**permalink**))

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Originally Posted by umbrarchist

So different people of African descent have different concepts of God. That still doesn't PROVE there is one. So what does it matter if some choose to be atheists?

um

It matters because atheism and secularism are foreign, alien ideologies. To impose such on Africa is every bit or worse than slavery and colonialism. It can only lead to disaster and further underdevelopment.

Cases in point are Ethiopia and Somalia. These are the two of the worse examples of alien ideology imposed on African culture. The result has been remarkably similar in both cases. In Erhiopia literally millions of innocent people starved to death or were slaughtered outright by foreign agents in the government. In Somalia millions are still refugees all around the world. In other words, the Africans have been forced to leave home in order to accomodate an alien ideology.

Egypt is somewhat a better situation in which secularism in attempting to impose itself. It has resulted in autocracy in which the people have little to no say in their government. Algeria ended its experiment in democracy in order to fight against believers and impose secularism. It makes absolutely no sense. It only ends up harming Africans.

Neferkare · (#32 (**permalink**))

@Shemsi

Atheism & Afro centrism: what a very interesting thread idea. You probably have not noticed but, up until this post, I religiously avoided this Spirituality and Religion forum, observing it to be an infinitely regressive pit of conflict and folly. But this thread poses a very practical question that formal Afro centrists and Pan Africanists should most certainly have an answer for. But herein lies the problem, to the best of my knowledge, there exists no international or national organization that the Afro-centrically-minded must be a member of in order to qualify themselves formally as Afro centric. There is no centralized Afro centric center that issues and maintains an Afro centric encyclopedia of terms, definitions, or do’s and don’ts; no common understanding of ideas by convention (by convention I do not mean an annual event but a consensus of what terms mean); no identifiable or quantifiable movement. Hence, I believe it can be safely said that the question you pose cannot and will not be definitively answered in this thread. Rather, people will continue to define Afro centrism generally. In California where I reside, I have observed the “Afro centric” to simply be active re-embracers of African ways and thinking. Some are Christian, some Muslim, some in Woset Community Churches, some atheistic and some agnostic. There is no consensus.

Remember, the late eighties and early nineties were times when Blacks wore Africa medallions and Ebo hats. This period in history irrevocably altered the way Afro centrism will be defined and regarded by the common Black masses (at least in America). People do not even bother to try and define the term with technical reference to its origin or alleged “real” meaning. They have simply appropriated the term as a standard part of Black English Vernacular. It is simply a preference for African cultural practices and African centered-ness. So, my answer to your question is yes, it is quite possible be Afro centric and a card carrying atheist.

Lastly, although there is no official, authoritative Afro centric organization, the work that needs to be done to continue to flesh out the lifestyle that should accompany the concept is being conducted by scores of qualified scholars and activists around the world. Nonetheless, I would like to think that, considering the quality of the discussion above, some of the work is also being conducted here. Having said this, I have to say that, while I am an Afro centrist of the generic kind described above, I agree with your formal definition and agree that a formal Afro centrist should not be an atheistic.

Holla!

meknow · (#33 (**permalink**))

America is on the down fall.

I have a friend who is in the military. He increasingly chatters on and on about power and authority incessantly. I read not many months ago that one of the questions that soldiers are being asked during promotion interviews is whether they could kill their friends and/or relatives if ordered to do so.

the most important things in military structure is authority and power, as long as the military is stronger than the people the government will stay in power if they placate the army. the power of the army backs the authority of the government. it seems that there may be a coming disagreement in America between the government and military over iraq.

i am struck by my study of the bible's end time teachings or eschatology and not being able to see any sign of America there. The final war prophesied of in the bible has israel standing alone against china, russia, egypt and other countries.

umbrarchist · (#34 (**permalink**))

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Originally Posted by abdurratln

It matters because atheism and secularism are foreign, alien ideologies. To impose such on Africa is every bit or worse than slavery and colonialism. It can only lead to disaster and further underdevelopment..

Africa is a piece of land. It is incapable of caring about this nonsense.

Who said anything about imposing anything on anybody?

You expect everybody believe that no Africans in hundreds of years before the arival of Europeans ever doubted the existence of their culture's God or Gods. If that isn't an insult to Africans then I don't know what is.

That is the problem with people that are into religion and plenty of atheists, they need to drag other people into their rut.

umbra