Agree, was going to make a point of it in the other thread. Atheism is a western construct, I would question its exsistance (pre westernization) anywhere else in the world, not just Africa.

By Afrocentrism I'm assuming you mean one who is African-minded, as opposed to the original definition of the word which, ironically, happened to gain its inception in the Western world by blacks who practiced it as an attempt to interpret Western civilization through the eyes of Africans--as best they could considering that many of them were unable to trace their roots to a specific African group--and to artificially recreate an African viewpoint (allbeit out of a necessity of the times, so I am not downing Afrocentrism) without in depth interaction with continental African communities and especially to recreate it specifically as a response to Western thought leaves the authenticity of Afrocentrism itself indefinitely more suspect than atheism could ever be.

So, for the sake of my argument I am going to assume you mean "Does one who considers themselves an Atheist truly understand and possess an African mentality with the ability to uphold African issues in as authentic a manner as possible?"

Well, as one that dislikes labels I believe that yes, it is possible to be an "African-centered atheist."
To my knowledge there is not a manual or Bible in which one must follow to become an African-minded individual, nor am I aware of any induction ceremonies.
I say this with a bit of sarcasm (sorry that's my style )

I am weary of people who assume that anything is and can only be one thing. There are many types and shades of blue....some are similar, and some are the antithesis of each other (bright vs dingy, light vs. dark, pastel vs. bold) but there is something about them that still makes them all the color blue.

You point out, as possible proof of your theory, that there are no founded African tribes that practice atheism. Well if you can show me an atheistic Western/European nation (either past or present) in which Atheism was the accepted societal belief (as opposed to the exception) steeped in tradition and embedded in the culture then I will accept your notion that the absence of an atheistic African tribe is unequivocal proof that atheism could only be a Western conception.

It's one thing to study (or Google) African groups and tribes, but it's another to know the range of complexities of the individuals of that community. Communal beliefs are not definitive, they change and evolve with each generation, and community members are not each prototypical of their community's majorities (be it beliefs, likes, dislikes etc). African communities and African peoples are just as complex as any other peoples. But it's more romantic (and practical in slavery times) to view Africans as a lump sum. One may view themselves as Afrocentric, but that does not make that person Afro-thentic.
In Baule culture there is a predominant belief in Animism and creationism which are accompanied by a rich array of cultural beliefs and practices.
One of these practices is the sacrificial killing of an animal. The men share the meat but the women are not allowed to eat the meat of a sacrificed animal.
Most women take this seriously and will go as far as refusing to touch the meat while preparing the food, lest they accidentally ingest it from contact of their hands to their mouth.
Cha but I've known women who would just as soon pick this meat from their husband's teeth and swallow it. There are people within this same village with varying degrees of belief in their traditions. It is not unusual for someone who speaks out against tradition to be labeled crazy, or ignored and accused of having dementia, so it is understandable that cynicism against the traditional beliefs is more quelled in African communities than it is in Western communitites.
Just because one's society does not allow atheism to be defined, or does not make it conducive for a person to openly identify as such within their community does not mean it is not "logically possible" for one to believe in such a way...which is why I created the thread I did insinuating that it is less acceptable within the Black community for someone to openly identify as Atheist.

The one thing I do agree with is that Western Society does make it more acceptable to identify as Atheist than other societies, but that doesn't mean it created Atheism or fostered it in an individual, otherwise we, who lived in the Western world, would all be Atheist.

Is there only one African concept of God?

Just because African's believe there is a God deos that necessarily mean there is one?

This could mean that you have to be delusional to be African.

Is technology European? Does that mean any Black people that are in favor of technology cannot be Afrocentric? This sounds like reactionism to European thought. We have to refuse to think what Europeans think and whether or not it is correct is totally irrelevant.

um

Your analysis of the authenticity of Afrocentrism is deeply flawed. Indeed, Afrocentric thought did a lot of maturing in the Diaspora, but Continental Africans (Nkrumah, Diop, Lumumba, Chinweizu, etc.) are integral to its development as well which made it a Pan-African endeavor. Even as early as Queen Nzinga Mbandi of Central Africa who fought undisputed and undefeated against the European enslavers (1582 - 1663) said:

"Being baptized into Christianity was surrendering your soul and body, not to Christ, but to the white man. A prisoners-of-war and the church were one and the same".

Then if you look at the stories of the Mossi Empire resistance to European and Arab cultural imposition, Yaa Asantewaa and the Asante tribe fighting against the British, amongst countless other testiments up to the end of colonization through today, one could only conclude that Afrocentric thought indeed started in Africa. We in the Diaspora were simply born into a more privileged position to further develop those ideas.



Sister, here is exactly what I said in the thread-starter:

"In professing this, a brother came to me and said I must be unaware of the Tiv tribe constituting 2-3% of Nigeria's population. I have been unable to find information on atheist African tribes, the Tiv or anyone else, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there."

So I didn't say the absence of proof means it doesn't exist. However, the cultural conception of God in Africa was that the One Supreme Being was all the combined energies in the Universe, which included the sun, plants, people, and so forth. Therefore, saying "There is no God" makes just about as much sense as saying "You don't exist", because man is intrinsically apart of God.

Oh, and by the way, Russia under Stalin was most pronouncedly an Atheist regime. Atheism, due to the Indo-European perspective of God outside of nature, was resident in Greek writing and as early as ancient India after the Indo-Europeans/Whites/Aryans invaded the Indus Valley to create the Hindu religion and caste system. Before that, India was settled only by migrant Africans out of East Africa where the Ganges River was named after an Ethiopian general.




I think here lies your problem. It isn't about societal constructs, as Africa had many different societies, with different customs, therefore different societal constructs. However, there is an overarching culture in Africa, just as East Asians have an overarching culture, as do Indo-European peoples throughout Europe-proper and West Asia (Middle East). Whether or not something is "possible" lies solely in how it is defined.

If you define God outside of Nature, then yes, Atheism is a sound and logical conclusion one can come to. However, that particular definition of God is solely an Indo-European invention. At the same time, if God is defined as being One and the same with Nature and the Universe, then it is logically impossible to then say God doesn't exist. If God didn't exist, then you wouldn't even be able to make such a declaration, because you wouldn't exist either.

So yes, you would be a loon if you accept the traditional African definition of God, yet deny its existence. If so, then how are you talking to me right now then?

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if God is defined as being One and the same with Nature and the Universe, then it is logically impossible to then say God doesn't exist. If God didn't exist, then you wouldn't even be able to make such a declaration, because you wouldn't exist either.

So what good is a definition with an inevitable but irrelevant God. Saying the Moon is God therefore there must be a God because there is a Moon doesn't accomplish anything. I don't have to pay any more attention to the moon than I usually do just because I slap a God label on it.

um

Hence why I proposed the idea of Afrocentrism meaning different things depending on context and usage. I am not denying that African-centered thinking existed before the creation, yes I said "creation" of the Western world African diaspora interpretation of African-centered thinking.

This is the more widely used representation of Afrocentrism in Western Society:

"Afrocentrism developed first as an argument among leaders and intellectuals in the Western Hemisphere" (Afrocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
Also from the same source:
"As an ideology and scholarly and social movement, the Afrocentrist paradigm has its beginnings among Black intellectuals, political figures and historians in the practice of history and social and political activism."

IMO Afrocentrism and African-centered thinking denote two different ideas and definitions.
African-centered thinking is a state of mind. Afrocentrism is a social movement that promotes an African-centered thinking (that was defined by the movement) among other ideologies.

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Sister, here is exactly what I said in the thread-starter:

Nevertheless, my point was not that you did or did not deny the existence of a predominantly atheist tribe, my point was that it is incredulous that you would even consider it a basis for the argument of why Atheism is a sign of corruption of Western thinking that prevents one from considering themselves an African-centered individual.
What I got was that you were insinuating that because there was a lack of significant evidence of an Atheist African tribe, then that excuses Africans as free from the possibility of being Atheist w/out a Western influence and presents reason to suspect that atheism is a Western construct, and could only be a Western construct.
By that logic (the idea that the lack of an atheist group in a race of peoples=a lack of atheist individuals within that same race) then it would have to be equally true for European/Western civilizations. You have yet to convince me that a Western civilization existed in which an "overarching" practice of Atheism was deeply rooted in culture. See my next point.



Oh no no no my dear. Russia was in no way an Atheist nation. Stalin was Atheist, and he was also a dictator. Russia was forced to comply with HIS beliefs. It was not a natural cultural course. People were persecuted for believing in God and practicing religion. Churches were either bulldozed over or turned into government buildings and religious recognition was outlawed and punishable by death.

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So I didn't say the absence of proof means it doesn't exist. However, the cultural conception of God in Africa was that the One Supreme Being was all the combined energies in the Universe, which included the sun, plants, people, and so forth. Therefore, saying "There is no God" makes just about as much sense as saying "You don't exist", because man is intrinsically apart of God.

Saying "There is no God" makes perfect sense...to an Atheist. That's the point of Atheism. The cultural conception of God in America is the Christian God. I do not believe in this God, yet my perception of the world makes sense to ME and the reality of my existence remains valid. As Umbrachist said, the belief that to say 'a god(s) doesn't exist means to deny the existence of everything else' is completely irrelevant to Atheists who don't believe in a god, or any conscious powers.


So you are now saying that not only can an Atheist not be African-centered, but anyone who is non-animist cannot be African-minded as well?
Atheism is not the disbelief in a certain type of God, it is the disbelief in any and ALL Gods, creators, conscious powers, nature spirits etc; the conclusion of Atheism is not dependent on the definition of a society's God, Gods, or creators. It is pretty much the same wherever you go regardless of the majority religion. It is also something that is often practiced on the sly by the individual and has only recently begun to become accepted by the Western world which still questions the possibility of someone being Atheist.


If one is Atheist they do not accept any definition of God as truth. They may understand the definition of God that is believed by their community, and even practice it outwardly but believe something very different within themselves.

Isn't communism is an athiest culture? They wrote about it with the opinion that it was a hinderance to mankind, the chinese consider/ed it to be a poison something in the way of outright rule over their people.

Would think that most Afro-centrics are athiest, although not 'in practice' perhaps, think many lack or would say they lack a substitute to relate to. Where others turn to Kemit for their spirituality the majority probably have an understanding of our past, culture, politics and so on but not take it much further than that.

Out of intrest, what do you follow Shemsi?

There is a defining line between somone who dosent belive in God and someone who chooses to not do so. In western terms God is replaced by technology, by science with no boundries as to what it can and can't do seeing itself as God in that sence, something with all the answers... an Afro centric athiest would have to belive in the rationalization of God in the same way they do to be an athiest proper. We (mankind in general) would be savage if it wasn't for the higher understanding so called religion afforded us (self cultivation), a lack of it would need replacing with something.

If you belive in everything African then in my opinion you should at least follow some understanding. Mankind originated in Africa although science ''proves'' it its something we've always known as is seen in Kemitian theology. If you are to relate to culture and religion Afro-centrically, and study other cultures, history and so on from that perspective then to stifle onself in entertaining questions such as; ''what energies were present to create the big bang?''... having to resort to western scientists attempts to answer, quoting Hawkings and so on then you can't call yourself Afro-centric, especially as it would involve beliving that we decended from monkeys... that our ancestors were common apes who eventually grew to become some modern man who in turn looks toward ancient civilizations in awe while lacking the ability to emulate the success of the past.... that's a western contradiction not an African one.

Information on the Tiv peoples, they are monothiesic, kind of:

http://www.reformedblacksofamerica.o...php?itemid=310

Would be hard pressed to come across an ethnicity on the continent who didn't hold a belief in regards to spirituality in some form or another, culture and by extention religion is nessary for a peoples survival, they wouldn't be an ethnicity otherwise.

sounds more like political propaganda to me.

exactly my point on the issue of attacking the authenticity of an Atheistic African-minded/centered person vs. one who considers themselves Afrocentric (in the Western definition and history of the word).

I am not him, but I can say with confidence that I recall him saying he considers himself Agnostic. So I am confused at his difficulty in understanding the concept of Atheism. Here, I found the post. Theres no such thing as an athiest.


IMO religion can be, and has been shown to be offensive in the destruction of societies. I'm not saying it's a bad thing and everyone should be Atheist, but other than Stalin there just isn't enough evidence of mass persecution of Atheists on non-atheists to make me believe that religion is the saving grace when there have been so many conflicts over religion.
For some, religion is the sole reason for their savagery.

I understand what you are saying but as someone who does not rely on religious explanations then yes, it is natural that I would be more inclined to probe other explanations. I am not Atheist because I CHOSE a Westernized explanation of evolution (which I don't know enough about to really have an opinion one way or the other) over an African explanation of creation, I am Atheist because I do not believe in conscious higher powers...regardless of my feelings about "that other stuff" I would still consider myself an Atheist.
I think the matter of this thread is that I simply do not believe in the same definition of African-centered thinking as you and Shemsi en Tehuti do. I do not think that to be an African-minded person, one who attempts to see the world from an African perspective, who uses the WORLD and what they learn from it for African gain, and one who comprehends and promotes African culture and African peoples, means to disregard every contribution of every non-African entity. If that were the case than every one of us here on BN that attended a Western school system, or university (some form of indoctrination of Western perception is inevitable and to believe that it is not is unrealistic), grew up outside of Africa, married an African diasporic, or bought a pair of NIKES would have to be suspect as well.


I agree. That is why Atheism is and continues to be a very individual thing and cannot be blamed on an entire society of peoples.
That's like saying Western tolerance of gays creates gaydom (which, incidentally, many do believe--I don't)...and there's no buggery going on in Jamaica. Trust that there is buggery going on all over the world, just most of it behind closed doors.