hahahahahahaha....

let me be as clear as I can about what you said.>>>> Hell exists as an eternal punishment for transgressions on Earth. If this indeed is what you are saying I am saying that not only is hell not the place or eternal punishment as I gave the scripture to support, but hell will itself be placed in the place of eternal punishment. As I pointed out to you earlier.

you oh great bible scholar brought scriptures that spoke of eternal fire and not hell to support the fact that you (what ever it is that you believe) inferred that hell was the place of eternal punishment. I gave evidence of the greek translation of the word for fire and hell was not among them and asked you to fine a place where eternal was used with hell.

and now you ask me to give a verse that speaks of an uneternal hell. well brother not only can i not do so (and i must say that this may be the only time i have ever heard the word uneternal used in my life).

Though I can prove that hell is not eternal simple. Would you can to dare me to do so? I can without a shadow of a doubt prove to you that hell is not eternal.

I will give you a hint if you would like.

but my only problem with your original post was that I was simply pointing out that hell is not the eternal place of punishment. that i stand on.

take the challenge bible scholar.

hey incog...

at least you did not try to quote from the bible or say that you know more about it than someone else. that is a dead give away.

i don't have time this moment, but i will get with you on who were the people from the land of Nod later......good question....

It is obviousl that you are too smug to even carry a sensible debate. Instead of flapping your gums (or your fingers), how about you just demonstrate that Hell isn't eternal and get on with it.

Secondly, I don't think you demonstrated that Hell was different from the eternal fire. If anything, the verse I mark I quoted says they are one and the same.

Shemsi - it's one of lifes biggest ironies...god gave man the power of thought, creativity and choice but when this was used against god it's like the bible was created to take away this ability to think, create and choose. This has clearly worked for many who are now nothing more than "Lobotomised Christians" - as sizzla said, 'All now they are still waiting to see god come from the sky'.

We live in times where it is becoming les and less easy to deny science but easier and easier to deny god. My spirituality keeps me in touch with the higher force i.e. if it was religion alone I would have become an atheist years ago - it's the spirituality what kinds of puts me in this frame of mind of meeting the two (science and god) in the middle.

Definitely haven't got all the answers but hopefully at least a perspective that opens a wider debate....even if it is to prove the thing wrong.

Shemsi - the bible is open for interpretation. as taken from wikip one interpretation of Genesis 4:16 is that Cain was cursed to wander the land forever, not that he was exiled to a "Land of Wanderers", otherwise absent from the old testament.

Many lands existed as part of gods creation i.e. when he created the world he did not just create the garden of eden, this was simply mans place of residence within the creation.

If hell was created as the resting place for souls which did not conform to gods way while they lived on earth then it is still feasible that hell is not necessarily an actual place but more a place of non existence, a void, an eternal wandering of no rest as opposed to peace in heaven - a bit like the film Superman where General Zod and his sidekicks were roaming around space trapped inside that sheets of glass.

Incog:

I had a problem with God when I heard that He knew everything. Darn'it I said, heck it does not make any difference what I do it is already settled because He knows. Meknow did not care about anything but not making my dad too angry. Or hurting my mom, everything else was fair game. I moved far away from them so that I could hide my goings on.

I reasoned that even if there was a God that I could balance out the good times by just having a 'hell' of a time in this life and not worrying about the next because I felt that I would be anihilated at death. But I found out that this christian plan had everyone being brought back to life after death to be judged.

hey incog, imagine if we could convince the better part of humanity numbers wise that there is no God and that when you did you would not even come back as a cock roach. it is capoot, fini, over and out...

as krishnamurti says, "think on these things".

ahhh young blood...one of those proverbials who will for prides sake argue with a sign board.

here goes young blood proof positive that hell is not eternal.

the diff' between eternal and everlasting is this one thing. Everlasting things have a beginning but no end, eternal is without beginning and has no ending. you are not sure of hell's place in the history of time.

but your argument seems to attempt to show God as bring hell either at creation or you mention his flaw if He did it post creation after sin. so dear sir, hell would thus fall in the created catagory of necessity in your flawed logic of a subject you would do well to educate your self on.

hell is then 'uneternal' but everlasting kind sir.

let me dear boy asketh thou a question in keeping with the thread.

a way out if you choose but if you dally still with pride you will only slip further into the mire.

Have you ever concieved of what nothing looked like? being the super intelligent fellah you are sir and "knowing" as you so soundly project that we "dreamers" who conjure up a belief system are utterly daft. intellect and matter/atomic molecules etc do not connect, what praytell could possibly have been "first cause"?

meknow - yeah John Lennon had a song about that called Imagine

hey incog, isn't that what this thread is predicated on, imagination having been asked by a non christian? someone once said that imagination births genius.

Htp

@ Shemsi In answer to your question, the short answer is - the biblical “hell” is a manmade creation, based on myth/legend and outright lies to indoctrinate FEAR and submission into the masses. Gehanna/Sheol Hades/Hell are nothing more than the common “grave” of mankind.

Hebrew – Gehenna


Ge•henna (gi hen′ə, gə-)
< Heb gey hinom, where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh were said to have sacrificed their sons to Moloch
the valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, where refuse, corpses ,was burned in Biblical times. The ‘dump” was continuously alight (burning)
The Valley of Hinnom had a very horrendous history in ancient times. It was used as a place where the pagan worshipers did all sorts of vile and wicked things - including burning children alive as sacrifices to the idols Moloch and Baal. One section of the valley was called Tophet, or the "fire-stove," where the children were slaughtered (2 Kings 23:10). It was a place of tremendous evil for many years.

After their return from the Babylonian exile (see Why Babylon?), the Jews turned the Hinnom Valley into the city dump where garbage and anything deemed unclean (including the bodies of executed criminals) was incinerated. For that purpose, a fire was kept constantly burning there. Even though it was no longer used for evil worship, with all the filth and thick smoke it remained a very dark and dreary place.
The Hebrew name Hinnom when translated into Greek is gehenna, from which the word and concept of hell originated. By the time of Jesus Christ, the deep, constantly-burning Valley of Hinnom was also known as the Valley of Gehenna, or Hell, and had taken on a popular image as the place "down there" where the wicked would eventually be cast into the flames for destruction.

Hebrew - Sheol

The word "Sheol" was for some time regarded as an Assyro-Babylonian loan-word, "Shu'alu," having the assumed meaning "the place whither the dead are cited or bidden," or "the place where the dead are ingathered." Delitzsch, who in his earlier works advanced this view, has now abandoned it; at least in his dictionary the word is not given. The non-existence of "Shu'alu" has been all along maintained by Jensen ("Kosmologie," p. 223), and recently again by Zimmern (in Schrader," K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 636, note 4) even against Jastrow's explanation (in "Am. Jour. Semit. Lang." xiv. 165-170) that "sha'al" = "to consult an oracle," or "to cite the dead" for this purpose, whence the name of the place where the dead are.

The connection between the Hebrew "Sheol" and the Assyro - Babylonian "shillan" (west), which Jensen proposed instead (in "Zeitschrift für Assyriologie," v. 131, xv. 243), does not appear to be acceptable. Zimmern (l.c.) suggests "shilu" (= "a sort of chamber") as the proper Assyrian source of the Hebrew word. On the other hand, it is certain that most of the ideas covered by the Hebrew "Sheol" are expressed also in the Assyro-Babylonian descriptions of the state of the dead, found in the myths concerning Ishtar's descent into Hades, concerning Nergal and Ereshkigal (see Jensen in Schrader, "K. B." vi., part 1, pp. 74-79) and in the Gilgamesh epic (tablets ii. and xii.; comp. also Craig, "Religious Texts," i. 79; King, Magic," No. 53).

JewishEncyclopedia.com - SHEOL

Hades – Greek (derived from Pluto)
Hades (from Greek ᾍδης, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs, probably from Indo-European *n̥-wid- 'unseen'[1]) refers both to the ancient Greek underworld, the abode of Hades, and to the god of the dead himself. Hades in Homer referred just to the god; ᾍδου, Haidou its genitive, was an elision of "the house of Hades." Eventually, the nominative, too, came to designate the abode of the dead.
In Greek mythology, Hades and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the universe ruling the underworld, sky, and sea, respectively. Because of his association with the underworld, Hades is often interpreted as a grim figure.

Hades was also called Plouto (from Greek Πλούτων Ploutōn), and by this name known as "the unseen one", or "the rich one". In Roman mythology, Hades/Pluto was called Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. The symbols associated with him are the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.
In Christian theology, the term hades refers to the abode of the dead, where the dead await Judgement Day either at peace or in torment (see Hades in Christianity below).

Hades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hell

Word History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Roman—that is, Mediterranean—belief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold. Hel is also the name of the goddess or giantess who presides in hel, the half blue-black, half white daughter of Loki and the giantess Angrbotha. The Indo-European root behind these Germanic words is *kel-, "to cover, conceal" (so hell is the "concealed place"); it also gives us hall, hole, hollow, and helmet.
Hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered: (1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15, 16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule. In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Prov. 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.). Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21, 22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num. 16:30, 33; Ezek. 31:15, 16, 17).

(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15). The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.). (See HINNOM.)
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary


"Hell" is neither a Hebrew or a Greek word (both Old and New Testaments were written in those languages), nor did it primarily indicate "a place of torment." Biblical translators actually derived it from a secular German word - spelled hel - meaning nothing more than concealed or covered. The concept of a demon regulated horror-house was indeed derived from that word, but it actually evolved from Teutonic mythology.

Not only is hell an ancient pagan tradition (not at all unique to Christianity), but the ancient Israelites did not understand death that way according to the Holy Scripture. This is why modern Bible translations are completely evicting that word from the Old Testament! Now, why would any Bible translation seek to remove a word unless it did not belong there in the first place? Because this disgusting fable, originated from a place other than God's Holy Word - yet was craftily slipped in by the dogma motivated church of ages past.

Example: as demonstrated below, the King James Version erratically assigns two meanings ("hell" and "the grave") to one Hebrew word: "sheol" (pronounced showl). How many minds have been influenced by this vulgar, hypocritical manipulation? Do "hell" and "the grave" mean the same thing? Ask the church, ask anyone, and they will say "of course not!" Open a Bible and it tells a different story. In fact, open a modern Bible and you will find they have all silently eliminated this deceit! How have they repaired this glaring contradiction? Not by translating sheol as hell consistently. Quite the opposite. They fixed the problem by contradicting the King James Version outright, and eliminating "hell" from the Old Testament altogether!

But, unfamiliar to the Christian majority, the word "hell," in the entire Bible was actually translated from four unique words: Sheol, Gehenna (a valley in Jerusalem used for dumping refuse), Hades, and Tartarus. Below are a few charts detailing these words to demonstrate how they were translated. For anyone new to the Bible, the NIV stands for New International Version, one of the most popular modern Bibles used in churches worldwide.

Here is an example: the King James translators rendered the Hebrew word sheol as "the grave" 31 times, but, they translated it as "hell" 31 times. Now, the the Israelites believed that everyone - good or bad, great or small - goes to sheol when they die.

This brand of doctrine-influenced translating infused these pagan myths into Bible causing these anomalies as evidenced in the King James Version:
Merciful Truth - The Real Hell

http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/...nd_Daphnis.jpg

Pan – the archetypical blueprint for Satan/Devil – whose ‘flute’ supposedly instilled Panic and Fear into all those who heard it.


In Greek mythology and in the ancient Greek psyche, Pan was associated with the darker side of Nature, and even human nature, as he was paired with things like nightmares and sexual violence. As he is bearded, hairy and beastlike, he is the archetypal wildman, representing wild instinctive energy, uncontrollable instincts. This debauched, short-tempered, rural god has bound up within him all of the darker aspects of ourselves. Pan is the embodiment, the personification of our dark human nature.
Pan is all about Nature, instincts and natural experiences so he also signifies a way to our spiritual side, to spiritual enlightenment through concrete physical experiences rather than just through examining things with our intellect. In our civilized way of life on our way to progress we often forget about Nature and our natural, instinctual side.
So in the notion of panic, in the actual physical and emotional state of panic, Pan is revealing himself with the wisdom of Nature, showing us this wild side of ourselves. As "civilized" beings we don't necessarily like this darker side of our human nature and