Lee Jasper cals for all BLACK schools...do you think it will work? - Page 2

Kunjufu · (#26 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bredder Tukoma

Lest not be fooled. African children with continental heritage are going jail and getting into trouble in school on an increasing basis. So the story of the studious African child may of held true 15/20 years ago. Not so much now.

As much as it pains me to agree, but this is most definately true one only has to study the surnames of those recently convicted of gun and knife crimes to see that a lot those the state labels BLACK or Black via the Carribean pathway are in actual fact Africans with continental heritage... This is partly why i keep asserting that this is a youth problem and no so much a BLACK problem because this issue is clearly cutting across ALL cultures now.. even the once revered studious Asians...

Bredder Tukoma · (#27 (**permalink**))

@Kunjufu

So tell me why you think an all black schools would not solve the problem if stocked by hand picked teachers and not the same "ignorant as European teacher" in disguise. Are all schools private/ or state funded required to follow the national curriculum?

Babygirl44 wrote:

This is a hard one but I'm going to say that I'm against all black schools. As others have said school is not a social club, its not there to teach you how to be a decent human being, that's what your parents are supposed to do.

The more I think about it the more I come to reason that in fact school should be socialising children. At least share the responsibility.. In fact it makes perfect sense. If a child is entrusted to a government sponsered guardian (school) for 6.5 hours a day then they damn well should bear some responsibility towards how the child and social education is catered for.

Case in point: African child within "traditional society" leaves the village/city to be instructed and socialised within a peer group setting:

Case 2: Look at Eton or any of the top public schools in the country. What is their purpose. To educate and socialise the next ruling generation. They dont prepare them for 'peasant' work. They dont encourage them to think like peasants either.

Perhaps the emphasis in schooling is wrong. As plenty youth out there are clearly in need of social skills. I would hope that an all black school would adopt a holistic attitude towards education as opposed to just the western model of academic only.

Kunjufu · (#28 (**permalink**))

Golden1: some really great thoughts...in answer to your series of questions however there are in my view some fundamental points missing in this equation... Again i’m afraid i have to partly agree with Tony Sewell as much as it pains me to do so, and state that this issue is Not mainly ‘racism’ institutional or otherwise... That said when it is racism it is not in my view about individual racism, it imo about system and structural racism that is in build into the system that either deny our children the SAME opportunity or treats our children much harsher with the consequence that when our children fall foul of the system the consequences are not only much heavier but also in most cases life long, in comparison to their white peers..

I will explain the distinction in this argument by responding point by point to your good questions....

You asked
Q1.Do you feel training all teachers is the answer, in what I ask?

The response is that all people who work in inner cities and some key areas in the UK, need what i call ‘cultural competence’ and that competence as to be on the same level as the competence to be qualified in read, write and to be able to present information. The historical and fundamental problem in the UK is that they treat cultural competence as a throw away ideal that they often bolt on, or give lip service to as part of any public service training, and i have always thought that in actual fact it must be core competence that not only should be taught, but those working in a so called diverse community, should be forced to demonstrate they have the aptitude and ability to work in that community.. I hasten to add that, it should not be believed that because some is BLACK or non white that they have that competence, because in my mind would be a serious error of judgement.

Q2.How would do you identify the need for training against this?

As I stated above not only should Cultural competence be a core element of the job, it should be first made a core value in any teacher training, and that should be tested on an equal basis as you test awareness of legislation, communication, presentation and teaching methods etc etc.. and when employed it should be a core element of the teachers professional development programme, when there is ongoing discussion, training and monitoring of this standard.

What is cultural competence? For me it’s over and above the touchy feely black history month crap we are often fed, it’s over and above the we are the world mantra.. I’m talking about about being able to present complex information in a contemporary way that is culturally appropriate to the audience, I’m talking about recognising Not treating everybody the same, and recognising that culturally people use a wide array of behaviours and verbal sound to communicate, and being able recognise and interpret these in their proper context, I’m talking about being able to reaffirm the SAME standards throughout the class, whilst recognising and respecting cultural differences. Believe me the last bit may sound easy but it really isn’t.. But most importantly knowing how to engage and involve the WHOLE family in a culturally appropriate way into the learning and development of young people...too often find this does not happen!!!

Q3.Should we look for other solutions to managing kids education either not allowing:

The other solution is that there has to be review of how schools involve parents in the development and discipline of their children at school, again what occurs now through my personal and professional experience, is that parent are only contacted or involved when the child is completely out of hand and on the verge of suspension or exclusion.. Well thats too late, this is also what I mean by cultural competence, what i would expect is for the school to key into the local networks, and introduce their standards and their expectation direct to the adults of potential students BEFORE they get to their school, not after.. For school to STOP sending home so called parents charter that is NEVER enforced, but most importantly to do more that ask parents to WORK with the school, MAKE it a CLEAR EXPECTATION on the parents that they have to do certain things, and then to follow it up periodically... believe it or not THIS does not happen..until it’s too late..

Again a simple solution that is never used is having contact books going back and forth between home and school, where BOTH parties can communicate what i going on, therefore the child knows that whatever they do at school will be conveyed home and visa versa.. I’ve done this with my children and it works..but I’ve had to insist that it happens rather than the school insisting..

A solution for bad kids.

You said: We are fundamentally missing something here now in this society as black people whatever generation came before us our parents and grandparents, the generation we have now the ones who are having these kids that are now 11, 12 and 13 are the ones spiralling out of control.

Whilst i accept your central point for me the bit that is missing is this and I think Bredda Tukoma mentioned this already... PARENTAL RESPONSIBLITY.. sadly i have to say, that it is all well and good people chatting ‘racism’.. But the fact is quite of lot parents do not TAKE responsibility for the behaviour of their children..and worse want to fight the teachers literally, when their child is clearly in the wrong.. and even if they are in the right the WAY they literally attack teachers, is it a wonder that schools cannot keep good teachers or worse that a lot of teachers will not bother with BLACK children.. because their parents are well out of order in how they speak and behave.. people cannot have it both ways and i’m afraid too many want to..scream racism when in fact we are talking BAD parents...

You cannot let your children run wild at home, and then expect a teacher to reverse that in 6 hours at school, it cannot be done.. and if parents let their children run wild with no respect for adults...then they really cannot complain, when they teacher exclude them..whatelse can they do?

The fundamental bit about school before you start on education or BLACK influence is discipline, ie following direction, instruction and self control.. and the problem is that too many children lack this basic skill.. and then kick off when other adults try to enforce that in a learning environment... So for me before we talk about BLACK Schools, or BLACK perspective in school.. There has to be a very serious discussion about basic standards of behaviour, about ensuring that children BLACK & WHITE have at a minimum the ability to follow reasonable instructions, to have self control and verbalise their views without being self destructive.. If we are parents DO NOT reinforce the consequences for actions prepare them for life then we fail our children fundamentally...

Kunjufu · (#29 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bredder Tukoma

@Kunjufu

So tell me why you think an all black schools would not solve the problem if stocked by hand picked teachers and not the same "ignorant as European teacher" in disguise. Are all schools private/ or state funded required to follow the national curriculum?

Bredda..I'm gonna deal with this question in a moment, just need to nip out quickly...

Kunjufu · (#30 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bredder Tukoma

@Kunjufu

So tell me why you think an all black schools would not solve the problem if stocked by hand picked teachers and not the same "ignorant as European teacher" in disguise. Are all schools private/ or state funded required to follow the national curriculum?.

Well Bredda in addition to the comments i have already written, i think there are two key reasons why i personally believe that this idea as it stands is basically flawed...

1. If you think about it you cannot base a whole school culture on skin colour or for my money a political term, which the term BLACK is in it's basic form... If think about the fundamental reasons why Jewish and muslim schools work well..is because they do not work on the basis of skin colour or just a political term that can be twisted to suit the eye of the beholder.. They are founded on a faith and value system FIRST and the culture aspect second... Now unless a school for is based on those systems I think it will breed contradiction and will falter because it will have no central foundations..

I'm not against a school for us, what i'm saying is calling for a BLACK school is a recipe for oblivion.. I therefore think that a Black pentacostal school, a Coptic christian school or a Nigerian/Kenyan/Zimbabwean [insert any african country prefix] School would have much firmer foundations..than a 'black' school which essentially in my view mean nothing....

2. I also have to remind you that unless they change the laws of this country, all schools are required to operate a central cirricullum that has to cover set topics, so even if you had a 'black' school the issue remains that you cannot teach what you want, you still have to teach eurocentric information..and thats is the BIG contradiction that people like Lee Jasper fails to address when they make these grandiose calls for BLACK schools..

TheCall · (#31 (**permalink**))

It's a shame some of you think so little of your own people.

SoulRebel · (#32 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCall

It's a shame some of you think so little of your own people.

How'd you reach that conclusion?

Bredder Tukoma · (#33 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunjufu

[

I'm not against a school for us, what i'm saying is calling for a BLACK school is a recipe for oblivion.. I therefore think that a Black pentacostal school, a Coptic christian school or a Nigerian/Kenyan/Zimbabwean [insert any african country prefix] School would have much firmer foundations..than a 'black' school which essentially in my view mean nothing....

I said much the same thing earlier..black is too wide a term and too open to abuse.

2. I also have to remind you that unless they change the laws of this country, all schools are required to operate a central cirricullum that has to cover set topics, so even if you had a 'black' school the issue remains that you cannot teach what you want, you still have to teach eurocentric information..and thats is the BIG contradiction that people like Lee Jasper fails to address when they make these grandiose calls for BLACK schools..[/color]

Is that strictly true? For example they may stipulate that a history class must include an appraisal of the African slave 'trade'. Call me naive but I cant see how they could enforce that such teaching is from a Eurocentric standpoint. Although I suspect that the marking will be Eurocentric. In fact I know. Had personal experinec with that after reading Walter Rodney book and taking a geography exam and answering according to that knowledge. I got a D.

The emphasis would have to be on the physical sciences and language skills. Like alot of these tech schools that have sprung up.

Bea · (#34 (**permalink**))

[quote=Kunjufu;1486917]Sunday Express | UK News | Call for 'black schools' | Call for 'black schools'

All black schools, all Black teachers and ALL Black Governors....Is Jasper right do you thing it will restore some of the missing 'values' and correct the decline in standards...

[color="RoyalBlue"]
(I'm assuming 'Black' in this context means, African descendants).
This is possible if owned and run by us. So we can teach our children ancient African history, to instil self love, self respect and acceptance, which will encourage the motivation to learn, promote positive thinking, behaviour and out look. The aim of which would be towards contributing to the rebuilding of our families, communities, economy, intitutions etc, etc here and abroad.

Squaler · (#35 (**permalink**))

[quote=Bea;1487680]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunjufu

Sunday Express | UK News | Call for 'black schools' | Call for 'black schools'

All black schools, all Black teachers and ALL Black Governors....Is Jasper right do you thing it will restore some of the missing 'values' and correct the decline in standards...

[color="RoyalBlue"]
(I'm assuming 'Black' in this context means, African descendants).
This is possible if owned and run by us. So we can teach our children ancient African history, to instil self love, self respect and acceptance, which will encourage the motivation to learn, promote positive thinking, behaviour and out look. The aim of which would be towards contributing to the rebuilding of our families, communities, economy, intitutions etc, etc here and abroad.

Hello Kunjufu,
As a person who have had a taste of both black and white driven eduation if it wasnt for what was initially instilled in me in Jamaica I would have been psyhologially by the white system.I witnessed lots of undermining of black children in the school by downright racist teachers.I happened to attend both the comnprehensive system and the selective (high School).In the comprehensive where the less able child was geared towards the manual and trades there were more undermining and this undermining was at a deplorabe level.Teachers were openly racist in attitude and demenour and it did have a negative impact on the children at the time.Many didn't believe they could do no better than a menial manual job in the factory.
Most of the select schools had a different approach however although white,
they often brought the more able black students in their asystem and could not
deny their ability to learn.The blacks who were damaged in the system have now become the parents of at least one if not two generations of black Britons.The damage has been done and it is not easily overcome.
Racism spreads across the social structure of British society,teachers no different.To believe that racist teachers is going to educate our children adequately and favourably that they will later compete with their children at a later date is fallacy.
Even the best education in the white schools do not adequately prepare the black person to discover his true identity so there is a role for black governed schools.
Even saying this we cannot move away from the role of parentwood because as people we are doing lamentably bad.There are too many black children walking the street getting up to no good when they should be engrossed in their books seeking knowledge.With or without black school this problems needs to be addressed.Too many Fathers swinging their hook and not interreacting with their children.We as black men got to move away from impregnating our women and then abandoning our children.It is no Good playing the macho game bleating how many children we have when we do not know how that child is fed.
Too much of this twisted idea being portrayed to our children as if it is some achievement.There are greater achievements to be had.Blackmen need to face up to their responsibilites of nuturing and caring of their children.

Squaler