Fred B,

As usual you posted a lenthy response that touched little on the subject at hand.

For starters several magazines including the Economist published a study of the world's top fifty universites and only a handful are outside of North America.So, your swipe at American colleges is a joke.

Secondly for all your "African-ness" you seen almost scared of the concept of a Black University unless it's on the continent.I mean when I was in Zimbabwe with my Howard hat , a waiter rushed to tell me his brother had applied and was excited to have been accepted.So,the Black medical schools in America (Morehouse,Meharry,Howard, and Drew) still graduate the large percentage of Black doctors here.Lets time I checked there was no such thing as Negro anatomy or Black chemistry.Medicine is medicine and the need for trained doctors is still great in our underserved communities.

So,I'll let you continue spouting Nationalist rhetoric while still having a white value-system.niceone.gif

@FredB-Of course I understand that if one is going into certainmajors, it would make sense to focus on which particular schools are on the cutting edge in that field. That would rule out plenty of white schools as well. That is not what we are talking about, in most instances, however. We are talking about Black people who out of hand dismiss the possiblity of attending a Black school, and see it as inferior to attending ANY white school, no matter what major they intend to pursue(plenty haven't chosen a major, or won't stick with the one they have chosen,anyway). Most prospective college students aren't concerned with politics, OR research funding when picking a college, truth be told.

During the days of segregation, Black primary schools and high schools were grossly underfunded in comparison to white schools. In spite of that, it can be said that many of us were more successfully educated then, because we were being taught be teachers who A. knew would could learn and expected us to, B. We were not being taught by white teachers who had contempt for us, and lowered expectactions. The number of Black male students in "special ed" and in the "behavioral problem' category, skyrocketed after integration. That is not a coincidence. Just the hostility/indifference, that is often faced by Black students at all white universities, negates whatever "benefits" received by basking in all that well funded,whitepresence.

You made the exact point I was trying to make by commenting on the founder of Beatrice. Not only did he not need to go to Harvard to be successful(like Marshall and many others, he MISTAKENLY thought he DID need to, their rejection was the best thing that could have happened to him), I'd venture to say that if he had gone to Harvard, he would have been just like a lot of other useless educated Negroes, being proud of the fact thattheir gifts are being used to make someone else rich, and probably would NOT have developed the visionary/entreprenurial spirit that he did(or would have had it drummed out of him by the experience). What he developed into had more to do with what was in him, than it did with going to the "right" school,(that's true for the rest of us,as well,btw)The same way that the fact that Dubya graduated from the "right" school, doesn't negate the fact that he is an idiot. I don't care how well respected and well funded, Yale is, or how many lists they top.

I think Bacoo touched on the central difference in mindset,I see between many Blacks who attend Black universities and many ofthose who attend white ones.I believe it is also the reason that so many of the Black movers and shakers have come out of Black university environments. There is often more indepence of thought, daring and confidence,that comes from an all Black,supportive learning environment. That spirit is often quelled in Black students who end up spending as much of their time trying to justify their very presence at a white school, as they do DEVELOPING intellectually,socially and otherwise.

Bacoo wrote:
Too true. The funny thing about that mindset is that we still haven't figured out that white people don't NOT accept our Black asses because we didn't go to the right school. They don't accept us because we're "******s". You seriously think that just because you graduate from a "top" school, that it will stop them attributing it to affirmative action, and still doubting your abilities? Still giving some shit for brains white person, the benefit of the doubt, over you?Get real.Meanwhile, a boob like Bush can still be referred to as a Yale graduate, mofos are able to keep a straight face, when saying it, and Yale's rep is still in tact. If I was told he graduated from a 2 year community college, I'd want to see his transcripts and talk to his teachers, fellow students, etc,.Even after all of that was provided, I'd STILL have doubts,and want to know who he paid off or slept with,lol.

Gmahogany wrote:


Excellent points here.I think this is where the divide comes between Black Americans and others in the diaspora , especially those from the British system.



Black Americans had to make chicken salad out of chicken s** in almost every junture to include education.The ramification of "seperate but un equal is hard for many to understand.It was aganist the law for our ancestors to read and write and colleges were set up and thrived under those restrictions.

To abandon them to me it foolhardy considering the nearly across the board attack on Black children ,especially males by the American education system. Seems that fro all of FredB 's bravao he still wants the white man approval/validation and that's sad.

@Gamohogany said'FredB-Of course I understand that if one is going into certainmajors, it would make sense to focus on which particular schools are on the cutting edge in that field. That would rule out plenty of white schools as well. That is not what we are talking about, in most instances, however.

------------------------------------------------------

That is what I am talking about in all instances regarding all my posts on the above. In fact my first post makes this very clear and also goes into what are the primary motives or goals of the potential student in attending universities. If you simply want a good basic graduate education a black university it would appear to me is as good as any other even though the conservative ethos of Moorhouse etc would elimininate them from my considerations. Howard would be my only choice.

Anybody who suggest any white university is better than a black one is a fool and is not something I said given my arguments is clearly layed out. Furthermore, given experience both in the US and here or the Caribbean I don't think twice to say the average black university teacher or academic is far superior than their white counterparts.

I spend quite a bit of time advising black parents and would be students about places to study, particularly internationally, similar to other close family and friends abroad. My view in terms of graduate education within the Caribbean in most cases is to advise people to send their youngsters to the University of the West Indies, not only because if is our university and has similar historical role and issues which you will find in the US context around the attraction of black universities. But even more important is they provide a very high standard of basic graduate training and probably far higher than here and the US. Nevermind the financial arguments etc. When you consider the UWI has three Nobel Prize winners for their contribution to thier disciplines, including science and for their academic work and compare that to all the black universities who have only produce one which is Martin Luther King, the university has a high international pedigree. Despite being small and poor by comparison and equally conservative in most areas or discipliines.

But once you want to specialise in most feilds then they need to go to schools which are considered centres of excellence.

The only difference for me as I said from my first post I would simply go to these centres of excellence from the get go and maximise the advantages which that will give me rather than wait for three or four years. If you are crystal clear on the broad area you want to specialise in why mess about and go the long way round thingsconfused3.

You automatically put yourself at a disadvantage which no rational person would do. Of course you can do your Masters or Phd at a centre of excellence if you are of sufficient quality regardless of your undergraduate school in most cases.

A good student who did their undergraduate degree in a school of excellence is going to be in a far superior position when she goes onto study a Masters in the same institution, than someone who did their undergraduate work in another institution of less know repute in that area. This is crucial when you come to Phd level and can be the make or break of a student. You just come fresh and green to study or work with people who you only know as big names on books where the relationship between your professors and supervisors is fundamental to the whole success of the endeavour. The way I check it and what I have seen in my experience that is gambling with your future or depending on fate and circumstances. Smart folk don't operate in that way.

Performance and new environment anxiety can be seen clearly in students who transfer from one type of institution to another, especially if it has an international reputation of excellence. They take months to even find the steering wheel of the car while those students who graduated from those schools are going through the gears and widening their advantage.

Moreover, what black people need to realise is there is a world outside politics, if that is humanly possible and a hierarchy exists whether we want to accept it or not of higher educational institutions which is shared by black and white and Chinese and Japanese and all others. They are not all brainwashed and spouting propaganda, even if many do. The reason Reginald Lewis was ecstatic when he was accepted into Harvard Law school via an afffirmative action programme, which he had no time for in his rag to riches romantic recast of his conservative ideology, was that he knew what that school represented in the Western world and civilisation and beyond; especially for a hard working and single-minded individual such as himself.

I suggest if you are advising a black student or their parents and they have the personality and qualties required you would want them to benefit from that pecking order which exists, not only for themselves but also our people...Standard. That is what every other sensible race or ethnic group does. The Jews would pull out their big professional guns from the most prestigious institutions in the land to fix your arse. This is why we have these obnoxious Asians eg East African Hindus boasting about their representation in Cambridge for example, like they were there before us actually. Do you see any connection between those ethnic groups who are serious about power and the institutions they target and send their kids to.

Even if these ethnic groups set up their own universities which they could afford to do and have the expertise to, they would not rank them higher than those I have already mentioned for a hundred and one sound reasons.

A black person can expect to enjoy and benefit from the kudos of these type of institutions in the eyes of whites and particularly black people. People know what to expect in terms of quality which comes out of your mouth or the standards of your work and type of work you are potentially involved in.

This hierarchy exists amongst black professionals here and I know it does in the US. If you want toset up any major initiative in say academia the small number of black colleques who work in elite institutions are always the biggest catch to get on board. They bring big things to the table, both personally and institutionally. Those in the various professions are bestplaced to know from personal experience eitherthrough contact with these insitutions the differences that this makes.

Two final examples. I have a cousin who works for a professor who is a leading expert in geology and works for a massive energy company. She has told me when they receive applications for job from graduates they do not even consider anyone who has not attended one of two universities. Imperial College University of London being one.

My wife works for an international American company, which took over hers and they only recruit graduate trainees from 10 universities in the world. Four being from the US, 3 from Britain etc.

So to conclude this comes back to my fundamental and basic starting point of why do you want to go to university?

FBniceone.gif

@ Fred B

But your argument has also ruled out a lot of white colleges as well as HBCUs which you are saying no to as well or am I missing something? confused3

Burning Spear wrote:

@Burning Spear

If you read this thread again, you should see that your comments are baseless, and completely out of order.