Every denomination is a change. Let me give you an example. When Dr. King began to preach against Jim Crow, the National Baptist Convention was not happy about it. So, King and his supporters were obliged to form a new denomination called the Progressive Baptrist National Convention. That was a change. Had this chane not occured, we would still be living in the dark days segragtion.

Speaking of Darkness, Christianity took Europe into the Dark Ages. When Islam came Enlightment came. Thus, Europe came out of the Dar Ages. Another change. Had it not been for this change, Europe would be still living in virtual caves.

So it is really not the RELIGION that is important?

It is people changing their thinking.

The believers in any religion simply stagnate until someone with initiative comes along and kicks them in the but. People just want to attribute things to their stupid religions.

umbra

abd you are trying to change the subject of me being a denominationalist. you lie..

there is not a post on here that you will find where i acclaimed anything but being a christian. not one. i don't think i made a freudian slip.

an assumption abd.

i will tell you one more time, God is not about denominations or religion. that is a bad habit of men.

the bible is true and every man that is not lined up with it a liar.

go and find where i claimed to be anything except a christian abd.

umbra, men do not need religion. righteousness is in the busom, but the will to act justly is tempered by the desires that eat at us.

God has given no religion. only instructions through men to guide men who want to be guided.

God has said that there is a given time known only to Him when He will come and judge men for their works. in christianity men have the choice to believe or not believe.

Religion and denominations of religion is man made.

True. But, it are the men who keep changing Christianity. When Saint Paul told slaves to obey their masters, that was a change from when Moses told the slave masters to let my people go. Change. Men changed it. But, it is change nontheless.

Now do we have it straight that it is not christianity that changes but men's interpetation of it and I would assume (a risky thing in a debate) that the same is true with all the different sects of islam to and including this one you are supporting presently?

Religion come from men not God. Sects and denominations come from men not God. Do we have that straight or am I still a liar?

As I have stated you will not find one post on here where I said that I was anything other than a christian. Not a baptist (although I worship in the baptist setting), not a JW, a C.O.G.I.C., nor a Jesus only, none of them. I am a christian with a little c.

some one needs to tell you that during a debate the very worst thing you can do is ASSUME. if the argument is found lacking you loose not only creditability but the edge if you ever had it.

If we are settled on these points we can procede further.

Exactly. And these stupid men and women keep changing Christianity.

They don't change christianity as I am sure you will say is the case with islam. they simply teach false doctrine and error which Jesus told us would happen

>>>18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Romans 16:18 (KJV)

>>>10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. 12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
Isaiah 56:10-12 (KJV)

>>>19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
Ezek 13:19 (KJV)

>>>3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:3 (KJV)

>>>15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matt 7:15 (KJV)

>>>17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Romans 16:17 (KJV)

>>>3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1 Tim 6:2-3 (KJV)

>>>3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:2-3 (KJV)........

For the sake of clarity, let me ask you a question: Who was right, the National Baptist Convention or the Progressive National Baptist Convention? Which one was "teaching false doctrine"?

Let me get this straight with you brother. I know little about either. I do not attend conferences where they ask me to give the price of the last pair of shoes I bought or a house note. Good certainly can come from them but most are scams. The NBC or the PNBC can do nothing but tell me what the bible says.

I know myself what it says because I do as God commanded which is to study to show myself approved UNTO God (not man).

abd, the only reason we have baptist on our sign is because that the majority of christians feel comfortable with the baptist doctrine. baptist are pretty much sound in what they do teach, they get in trouble usually with what they don't teach.

In our assembly it is about the bible and what it says. We encourage people to bring their bibles and read it for themselves.

Not long ago they tried to make my pastor a bishop in the "full gospel" association. He declined but told them that if they could tell him what the half gospel or quarter gospel is that he would consider it. His point is that you are either preaching the Gospel or you are not. God only recognizes the whole counsel of the word, not partial.

There are so many crooks in the church today who are pimping the people of God. >>>1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:1-13 (KJV)

Cool. Th epoint is they are not the same. The PBNC grew out of the NBC. The NBC refused to support the Civil Rights Movement. I think this was at last due in part to their reading those verses where we are told to obey the slave masters. PNBC accepted Black Liberation Theology at least to a point. This is what Dr. King was about. I certainly hope you can see that Dr. king did GOD's Will.

I know myself what it says because I do as God commanded which is to study to show myself approved UNTO God (not man).

Did you know that the Soutern Baptist Convention supported slavery? My own family goes way back in the Baptist Church. We have a history of fighting slavery. But, many of us also accpted the evils of Jim Crow segregation. I am one of the few who supported Civil Rights from day one. For me, it is logical growth to become an African nationalist. Because the Baptists have failed in their duties towards Africa, I found it necessary to seek out Islam to reclaim my African heritage.

Yeah. I know exactly what you are talking about. Instead of being honest and reading the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter from the beginning to the end, you skip around, twist things and take them out of context. Otherwise, you would see clearly that Genesis is about Africa. And, you would see that the prophesies are anti-slavery which is contrary to the teachings of Saint Paul. It is a trick. It is a corrupt way of teaching doctrine. Baptist doctrine is about supporting slavery and just about every other reactionary and evil force in American society.

Well, no wonder you are confused. There is much more to the Bible than just Gospel. Personally, I think Prophesy is more important than Gospels.

There are so many crooks in the church today who are pimping the people of God. >>>1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:1-13 (KJV)[/quote]

Okay. Apparently you have not read those verses. Check out Verses 7-8: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ. Dis he not say that he was the least of all saints? Yeah, he said it. And, for once I agree with him. He was even less than the least at one point in time because he was a murderer of believers, a hired killer.

In any case, he compromised the gos[pels and the prophesy in order to appease the Gentiles. This is why he tells the poor helpless slaves who had nobody to turn to but GOD to obey the slave masters. That was a stupid and cowardly thing to do. But, it is to be expected from Saint Paul. Aftyerall, Paul was NOT a prophet.

Here is an interesting interpretation of Lenin's dream:

01 The Engineer's Plot - Adam Curtis - Pandora's Box

Nkrumahism and technology and paleface economic power games.

Pandora's Box - Ep 5 - Black Power

um

Abd, before I get into a discussion about the prophets that you hold dear let me ask a question?

Which of them do you not agree with?

I have some interesting prophesies that were given by them that might scald you as a islamist.

abd,

the following are your words>>>>In any case, he compromised the gos[pels and the prophesy in order to appease the Gentiles. This is why he tells the poor helpless slaves who had nobody to turn to but GOD to obey the slave masters. That was a stupid and cowardly thing to do. But, it is to be expected from Saint Paul. Aftyerall, Paul was NOT a prophet.

1. "in order to appease the gentiles", now from what I understand about Paul was that the majority of his writings were from prison. and even a few were written after he had been sentenced to Nero's chopping block in Rome.

If Paul was an agent of the gentiles (Romans) he cut a sorry deal with them.

2. "the poor helpless slaves", it certainly is of a truth that the slaves at this time were wretched and helpless. So I am sure that Paul should have told them openly to take up arms and revolt against the most powerful army in the world at the time. yeah uh huh. Right!!!

What would you have openly told them abd?

Whether you believe or not Paul was working with the Power of God and letting them know that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would rescue them and turn things around if they trusted in Him.

Abd, we have discussed before the most open force in America against slavery was what organization? Oh yeah there were atheist abolutionist but what group openly spoke out and acted out against slavery? can fix your lips and fingers to type is can you?

3. Ahhh...you got this correct at least>>>Paul was NOT a prophet

What is this? Another one of your trick questions? There are thousands upon thousands of prophets. But, Saint Paul was NOT one of them. And, prophesy by definition is some thing that no beleiver can disagree with because it ALL comes from the One and Only True GOD. This is why I know Saint Paul is not a prophet: because he says things that are contrary to prophesy. Thus, to include his epistles in the Bible makes the Bible appear to contradict itself. This is why most denominations, especially the Baptists, cannot atke the Bible without a fair amount of dilution and distortion. They must twist the Bible around and cooruption its Message in order to make it fit with the Episrles of Paul. Otherwise, they start studying ther Bible with the Book of Genesis and continue sysrematically from one Book to another through to the end. What they actually do is start with the Epistles of Paul them the y go back and skip arounfd to find those verse that they think might fit in with the Epistles of Paul. Then, they have the nerve to come here and tell us that they abide by the Bible. Again, I call you a liar.

I have some interesting prophesies that were given by them that might scald you as a islamist.[/quote]

Bring it on.

Bring it on.[/quote]


abd, please read what I said. Paul was not a prophet. Most of the NT writers were not.

i am pretty much through with dealing with Paul being supportive of slavery. you have yet to give any proof that either he or the bible supports it. you did not answer what message you would have openly given to onisimus. what would you have told the poor helpless slaves, to pick up arms and fight the romans?..

and you did not give the definition of prophesy at all...try again.

you an avowed islamist telling me that I don't know the bible....hahahhahahaha

do you know which prophets prophesied that israel's reclaiming the promise land? do you agree with these prophets? or are you only selecting prophets that agree with you? the OT prophets brought some strong words to and against israel.

stick to the koran abd....you don't have a clue about the bible...

abd, please read what I said. Paul was not a prophet. Most of the NT writers were not.

i am pretty much through with dealing with Paul being supportive of slavery. you have yet to give any proof that either he or the bible supports it. you did not answer what message you would have openly given to onisimus. what would you have told the poor helpless slaves, to pick up arms and fight the romans?..[/quote]

I would have told them exactly what prophesy says: let my people go.

Prophesy is the Word of God Revealed to mankind. See. That was not all that hard now, was it?

Wrong. I am simply a Muslim. I am NOT considered an Islamist or an expert on Islam.

Another lie. Show me ONE prophet that says that Euroepan Jews would come and take land away from innocent Palestinian women and children. Just ONE.

I know that Biblical prophesy is about Justice, Fair-play and GOD's Grace. Therefore, it cannot sanction the crimes being cvommited against the Palestinains. You are lying again. Show me ONE verse to support modern day Israel.

i know it is a difficult thing for you to grasp abd, but paul was talking to the roman jews and not the romans. You said that christianity supports slavery yet you use God's message to egypt to say that paul could have told the romans to let them go. did you know that their captivity was a thing prophesied by the prophets because of israels disobedience to God?

Are there consequences for disobeying your allah? does he allow 'bad' muslims into slavery or poverty which is slavery in and of itself?

prophesy now is the revealed word (Bible), simply speaking forth. In the old days it was God speaking through sometime illiterate farmers and just basically unlearned men for the most part things they would occur sometimes as a consequence of what israel did or did not do. And sometimes as a plain warning or as instruction. As you correctly said it was God speaking to men as the situation required.

The beautiful thing about it was that it was not God being in panic mode trying to keep order but more of his mercifullness as our Father to help us avoid punishment or as the chastening parent who is now pronouncing punishment.

And one thing to be added with the definition of a prophet of God in christianity is that what he said must come to pass or he was declared a false prophet and in most cases killed.

I have said nothing about a european jew abd, your words. are you saying that God did not tell the jews that they would inherit the land of canaan? I am pointing out the fact that you know nothing about the prophets and what they prophesied. I have not mentioned palestinian women and children. i do not support the killing of them or them killing israelis. but this is Ishmael and Isaac's hot bloodiedness.

once again you call me a liar without any reasoning. a verse to support modern day israel huh? what is modern day israel?

all i know is the israel of the bible whom God has made many prophesies about. Most have been fullfilled. you are not going to ask me to show you prophesies from the prophets you say you support and make you look like what you are are you?

you toss the word liar around too easily abd, you sins will find you out brother.

A round about way to finally get to the nitty gritty. Better late than never.

One verse, please.

In Biblical times, the Hebrews were promised the Promised Land. I am not sure, but my understanding is that the people to inherit this Land were descenadnts of Abraham. Right? The deseceanadnats of Abraham (Peace and Blessinsg be upon him) are those we know as Jews AND the Arabs, the Berbers and pver half of the population of Africa, not to mention much of Asia and a large part of Europe. Indeed, Abraham is the Father of Many Nations. Imagine putting all of these people in tiny little Palestine. Get real.

In any case, the current legitimate inhabits are the Palestinians, not the German, Russian and New York Jews. Keep in mind that some of the Paletinains are also Jews. So, do we kick Palestinian Jews off the land to make room for New York Jews? That would clearly be contrary to GOD's Law of Justice.


The ball is in YOUR court. It is up to you to show me ONE verse to support the lies you are spreading on behalf of the white man (and woman).


I do not mean to offend. But, Brother, I think you are very naive to think that the rulers of this country have not packed millions upon millions of lies into our minds. When we repeat these lies, we become liars.

I have not checked the dna of anyone there. if the people there are not legitimate jews then that ought to be easy enough to prove huh.

you are correct that it is the descendents of Abraham that will inherit canaan>>>1 Abraham married a second time; his new wife was named Keturah. 2 She gave birth to Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 Jokshan had Sheba and Dedan.
Dedan's descendants were the Asshurim, the Letushim, and the Leummim.
4 Midian had Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah—all from the line of Keturah.
5 But Abraham gave everything he possessed to Isaac. 6 While he was still living, he gave gifts to the sons he had by his concubines, but then sent them away to the country of the east, putting a good distance between them and his son Isaac.
7 Abraham lived 175 years. 8 Then he took his final breath. He died happy at a ripe old age, full of years, and was buried with his family. 9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite, next to Mamre. 10 It was the field that Abraham had bought from the Hittites. Abraham was buried next to his wife Sarah. 11 After Abraham's death, God blessed his son Isaac. Isaac lived at Beer Lahai Roi.
The Family Tree of Ishmael
12 This is the family tree of Ishmael son of Abraham, the son that Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's maid, bore to Abraham.
13 These are the names of Ishmael's sons in the order of their births: Nebaioth, Ishmael's first-born, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa 15 , Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah— 16 all the sons of Ishmael. Their settlements and encampments were named after them. Twelve princes with their twelve tribes.
17 Ishmael lived 137 years. When he breathed his last and died he was buried with his family. 18 His children settled down all the way from Havilah near Egypt eastward to Shur in the direction of Assyria. The Ishmaelites didn't get along with any of their kin.
Gen 25:1-18 (MSG)

Chapter 15
God encourages Abram
1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Abram complains for lack of an heir
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Canaan promised again
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. 8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? 9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. 10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.


12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Gen 15:1-21 (KJV)

i believe that canaan proper is a bit bigger than palestine...

this is not about the so called european jews but the children of promise.

there is a hagarian covenant also.

The Hagaric Covenant (Gen. 16:7-14)
This covenant was made with Hagar and with Ishmael, Abraham's son, for many generations. It was in three parts:
1. Commands:
(1) Return and submit to Sarah (Gen. 16:9).
(2) Call her son Ishmael, meaning God shall hear (Gen. 16:11).
2. Promises:
(1) Multiply her seed beyond number (Gen. 16:10; 17:20).
(2) Blessings on Ishmael to become a great nation (Gen. 17:20; 21:17-18).
(3) Ishmael to beget twelve princes like Jacob (Gen. 17:20; 25:12-18).
3. Prophetical Revelation:
(1) Ishmael to be a wild man (Gen. 16:12).
(2) His hand to be against every man (Gen. 16:12).
(3) Every man's hand will be against him (Gen. 16:12).
(4) He shall dwell in the presence of his brethren (Gen. 16:12).


Sarai, being barren, gives Hagar to Abram
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Hagar despises her mistress, is punished, and runs away
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. 6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

An angel sends her back, telling her she will bear a child
7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.


10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? 14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

Hagar bears a son who is named Ishmael
15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. 16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.
Gen 16:1-16 (KJV)

Basically, there are two ways to trace the off-spring of Father Abraham (Peace and Blessins be upon him): biologicaly and spiritually. It goes without saying that if someone who is not of Abraham's bloodline marries someone who is, all of the children will be of Abarahmas seed. Thus, it does not take long for one man to become related to literlly millions upon millions of people. This is what has happened in Palestine and most of Africa. In Africa, there are hundreds of millions of descendants of Abarahm; both through Sarah and Hagar (Peace and Blessings be upon them both)

Spiritually, all believers of the One True GOD are desnedants of Abraham. Even Chjristians cannot deny that Jews and Christians have the Same GOD. Muslims also have the Exact Same GOD as the Jews. Therefore, all Christians, Muslims and Jews have equal claim to the Holy Land. It is absolutely wrong for a Muslim to deny a Christian access or a Jew to deny a Muslim access and any combinmations thereof. The Holy Land is for all believers of GOD. Therefore, true beleiveing Jews are opposed to zionism as much as Muslims are opposed to it. In other words, zionists are not Jews. not believers. At best, they are secularists. Most zionists are athesits or agnostics. Thus, we see Karl Marx who descends from Jews as an atheist, someone who does not believe in GOD.

We as Nkruamhists, however, are beleivers. The few fools who are not beleivers do not much conern us because we know that no non-beleiver will ever amount to anything in Africa.

You must mean a third time. Frankly, I am not familiar with this lineage. But, for the sake of clarity, Sarah was his first wife and Hagar was his second wife. So, you must mean that he married a third time. I do not know.

Ehtiopia is a descendant of Sheba.

No ifs ands or buts, please. Show me in scripture where this happened. What I have read clearly indicate to me that GOD was He Who did the Giving. It was not up to Abraham. Ishmael was an heir to Abraham.

Now, I know Christians have perverted opinions on this issue. Christians think that a man can go about having sex with whomever he pleases and not be held accountable. Thus, we see Bill Clinton having sex with Monica Lewinsky. But he takes no repsonsibility for Miss Lewinsky. The same is true for your fellow Baptist Jesse Jackson. He gets a poor liitle girl pregnant. When his first wife finds out about it, he ships the girl off half way across the continent to raise a child as a single parent. Alone! This is WRONG! It is a bad example for our youth.

In Islam, the man must take reposnsibility for his children. By law, he must support them all. There is no non-sense about one marriage is not as good as another marrigae. The Bible clearly says that Hagar was Abraham's wife. Therefore, there is no dispute about Ishmaels' claim to Canaan and the rest od Aarbia and North Africa.


So?

I do not know what you think those verses say. More than likely, you are just trying to confuse the issues as usual. But, I know clearly what the issues are; you cannot and will not confuse me.

Those who beleive in GOD, the Jews AND the Muslims have a legitimate claim to that land through Abraham. This is a SPIRITUAL heritage of believers. And, this is the way things have always been all down through history. There have always been Jews, Christians and Muslims living in Palestine. Nearly 25% of the Palestinians are Christians. Jews have always lived among Muslims.

The problem is with the Christians. They murderd six million Jews during World War II. So, Jews had a legitmate need to get out of Dodge. They came to Palestine. Because they had lived so long among Christians, they had adopted the menatlity and habits of the Christians. Instead of continuing the long tradition of peaceful coexistance between Jews and Muslims, they decided to dispossess the orginal inhabits and replace them with Jews from New York, Russsia and Germany. This is where the problem started. Of course, the Muslims fought back and will continue to fight back.

Now, keep on lying. Lying will not fool anybody except you Christians. We know the facts. The fatcs are the Christians murdered the Jews, not the Muslims. So, you go figure this out. Show me where Muslims have ever murdered Jews or any one else on a large scale such as what we have seem done to the Jews by the Christians.

I am not going to get into all that cute and fancy Hagaric Convenenant non-sense. When yo do that kind of thing, I think you confuse yourself more than you confuse the rest of us.

I pan to perform al-Hajj this year, GOD-willing. In another thread someone asks what is in the Kaaba. Well, let me tell something baout what is happening here at Mecca and Medina. There is well there, the exact same well that Hagar found to get water for Ishmael (Peace and Bleessings be upon all of the prophets) That well is called Zam Zam.

Al-Hajj consists of retracing the footsteps of Prophetess Hagar as she was seeking refuge for her child Ishnmael. The story appears in the Bible. GOD leads her to the Zam Zam well. Thus, Islam has the Holiest site in all the history of Mankind. This included the kaaba. There is no doubt to Muslims that Islam is the religion ordained by GOD Himself. Thus, it is entirely unlike Christianity which is based largely, too largely, upon the Epistles of a hired killer.

ahhhh so islam is God's religion because he led hagar to zam zam. and christianity is not because of paul. you are one logical dude abd....in fact your logic defies logic if i may say so.

take a look at this statement abd, it shows your liking...."thus islam has the holiest site in the history of mankind..." what makes a thing holy? is it not God? why would one site be holier than another where God manifested Himself strong? If you notice most of the so called holy sites of christianity are not found. Just as God hid the body of moses, He did also for sites that would cause men distraction and cause them to lose focus on him rather than a place on earth.

sorry old boy but Jehovah and allah are not the same. the bible, the koran do not speak of the same. you can call jews what you like and classify as you wish. it is not my decision one way or another who is heir to canaan. God choose a certain people to bring his savior through. that people was called israel, jews, hebrews and a few other names. the whole of africa is not them. were it so they would not be fighting.

the bible does say that hagar was a handmaiden of sarah abd. a servant.

abd, you are under the weather son. you try to use the bible when it suits you and when you read what it says you conveniently claim the white man changed that. either stay out of the bible or go read it for your self.

whether you believe it or not it says that abraham gave all to isaac. say what you may but that it what it says.

Before Revlation of Qur'an, the Bible was our source of guidance. As Qur'an came down to us, The Bible was often mentioned and held in very high regards. In fact, both Christians and Jews were condsidered to be friends of the Muslims. This is why we found refuge among the Christians of Ethiopia. But, the Jews were wishy washy alies. So, they betrayed us in war and were severely chastised for their poor judgement.

In most Muslim countries today, there are still very large populations of Christians. In pre-invasion Irag, the Prime Minister was a Christian. Egypt has a great number of Christians. The same is true of Lebanon and Syria. I said just yesterday that Palestine has a very large percentage of Christians. So, when zionists oppress the Palestians and murder them, they are not murdering just Muslims, they are also murdering and oppressing Christians. When the Pa;estinians resist and fight back, it is not just Muslims fighting back. It is also Christians.

When Revalation of Qur'an was completed, it became clear to us that Christinas had been misguided in some matyters. Every day all Muslims all over the world pray several times begging GOD to help us to avoid making the same mistakes that Christians have made. I am sure that this is one reason that Muslims have always been so careful to make sure that Qur'an is always available to every Muslim in the orginal Arabic. This way we cannot be misguieded by playing games with translation as so often happens in Christianity. GOD is the ONLY Author of Qur'an. So, we never have to argue about such things as which writer is legit and which one is not. We do not have to fuss about which parts to take out and which parts to keep in. Every Word of Qur'an is clearly the Word of GOD Only.

As for shrines, Mecca and Medina, including Zam Zam Well, are the holiest shrines in the history of mankind. Period. No apologies. What you need to understand is that Jeruselem is Islam's second holiest site. This is why there will never be peace in Palestine until Jeruselem is free from zionist control. This is not a matter for Arabs to decide. 25% of the world's population claim Jeruselem as a holy shrine, not even counting the Christians. So, understand this. I did not write this history. These are facts. It would be wrong for me to offer an apology.


There is no other place in the world where GOD has manisfested Himself more strongly than there at Zam Zam. It is that water from GOD that more than half of Africa traces it origins. Plus, a very large percentage of Asia and about 75% or more of the Arabs, in fact ALL of the Arabs.

This is why Mother Hagar (Peace and Blessings be upon her) is the most venerated woman in the histroy of mankind. She is the Mother of all of these just mentioned. And, we honor her each time we face Mecca to offer prayers.

Cool. But, in Islam, every Muslim is required to honor these shrines by actually going there if he can afford to do so. Repeat: EVERY MUSLIM IS REQUIRED TO ENTER THESE SHRINES. There is no room for argument.

Proof:

The Genealogical Table of Prophet Muhammad:</strong>
Abraham and Hagar
Ishmael
Kedar
*
*
*
*
Adnan
Maa’d
Nazar
Ilias
Mudraka
Khuzaimah
Nazr
Malik
Fahr
Ghalib
Looi
Kaa’b
l
Murrah
l
Kelab—
l
Ghusey
l
Abd(u) Manaf
l
Hashim
l
Muhammad

(Muhammad is related to Jesus through the union of Abraham and Sarah.

Abdurrahman)
Abraham and SarahIsaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses
David
Solomon
Amram
Mary

Jesus


(Muhammad is also related to Abraham through his mother's lineage. Abdurrahman)

Kelab
l
Zuhar
l
Amaniah[1] (http://www.blogger.com/posts.g?blogI...ype=ALL&page=1)

The land is to inhabited by the seed of Abraham. Jews are just some of them. There are hundreds of millions of Abraham's descendants. I am rusty on my mathmatics. But, ask any matmatician how many descendants of Abaraham (Peace and Blessings be upon him) there are in the world today. Numbers do not lie. Even if only Jews are counted, it is absolutely clear that Palestine is NOT big enough to accomodate all of the Jews in the world. Thus, by your logic, ther zionists would have to take all of Arabia and half of Africa. This is why every honest African must fight zionism. We have just finished kicking crackers out of Africa. We will not aloow you Christians to bring them back in. Period. No apologies.



Genesis 16:3 (Whole Chapter)
So Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar her Egyptian maid, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his [secondary] wife. (Bible Resources, Online Bible, Read the Bible, Search the Bible, Bible Study Plan, Passage Search, Keyword Search)

Go read your Bible. The word "servant" is not in the verse above.


This is why Zam Zam is so important. GOD clearly gave Ishmael water to drink.