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  1. #1

    Default Homosexuality in africas pre-colonial past

    Meet Black Singles and find your soulmate
    ...I WAS SURPRISED wheni found this, i stumbled upon this while doing some reserach for something else....what do you think

    The standard explanation offered by Africans opposed to gay rights is that homosexuality is alien to their culture and was introduced to Africa by European colonialists. A good deal of African-American homophobia relies on the same justification. But late 19th-century records on Africa and African oral history show that homosexual practices existed in pre-colonial Africa. One case in point are the Azande people in the north-east of modern-day Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), where it was acceptable for kings, princes and soldiers to take young male lovers. Further evidence for the existence of homosexuality is that pre-colonial African ethnic groups ascribed tribal classifications to gay people. While some of these categorisations had negative associations, many had neutral connotations. Certain tribes in pre-colonial Burkina Faso and South Africa regarded lesbians as astrologers and traditional healers. A number of tribal groups in Cameroon and Gabon believed homosexuality had a medicinal effect. In pre-colonial Benin, homosexuality was viewed as a boyhood phase that males passed through and eventually grew out of.
    Indeed, European contact altered some pre-colonial African attitudes towards homosexuality considerably. For instance, early colonial Portuguese penal codes criminalised homosexuality in Angola. Prior to Portuguese control, homosexual men called chibados had been free to exercise their sexuality. Portuguese colonial laws either gave rise to or intensified homophobia in Africa. Homophobia is more colonial than the practice of homosexuality in Africa. The contradiction could not be starker.

    The origins and role of same-sex ... - Google Books
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal

  2. #2

    Default

    19th Century records? Pre contact with europeans?

    LOL!
    History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals

    Omowale Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

  3. #3

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    ... if you follow the link,
    The origins and role of same-sex ... - Google Books the book
    ( disscusses in very great detail) observed incidence of homosexuality in parts of africa what is so laugh out loud ?
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal

  4. #4

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    And so the "white sex" onslaught continues.....

    I suspect the author from the above book "James W. Neill" is white and that actually tells us something. White people/European people are homosexual by nature, they have always been and they can go back 1000's of years showing evidence of this, it is in their nature.

    I have not seen any historical evidence of this behaviour in any other continent other than Europe (White Arabs don't count.) before coming into contact with Europeans.


    "White sex" = homosexuality, paedophilia, bestiality, bondage......
    Listen to The C.O.W.S The Context of White Supremacy Radio

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    ... if you follow the link,
    The origins and role of same-sex ... - Google Books the book
    ( disscusses in very great detail) observed incidence of homosexuality in parts of africa what is so laugh out loud ?
    What's funny Saint Sage is a thread about pre-colonial Africa and the lack of european influence, is followed by a cut and paste where 19th century european records are quoted as the evidence. How "objective" is that?

    I don't need to read books about African culture written by white people who are possibly homosexual to understand that some people are almost psychotically trying to equate Grecco/Roman "love" with African Culture.

    If you think the reference (Book) you posted is worth a serious debate, make the argument. You're the one who is surprised that europeans try and universalise their behavior and project it on to everyone else.

    I'm not.
    History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals

    Omowale Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

  6. #6

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    bread fruit..... the authors compiled observed incidence of homosexuality at a time when europeans could not have 'corrupted all the locals' ( my phrase)
    i.e. the argument that
    a) homosexuality is a european invention
    b) there was no homosexuality before europeans came.
    is put in doubt if (again) many incidence of homosexuality were observed before the root and branch change of african culture...
    ( thats my basic argument, i only write down what i have read)

    there are other books like Hungochani: the history of a dissident sexuality in southern Africa - Google Books
    that have, through imperical research, thorough transparency , using the same methoods that any good reseracher has used before them, complied incidence of europeans witnessing incidence that could be described as homosexuality, and native oral history of incidence of homosexuality ( this is in the hungochani book ) like the shona peoples recognising incidence of 'queer sexuality'
    or the chibanda, a caste of male diviners possessed by female spirits and referred to in early European sources as “passive sodomites”.

    again, all of this is in the book (s)...

    BREAD FRUIT, we are not just talking about one or two incidence seen sparodically, we are talking too many incidence for you to simply just brush aside... or dismiss.
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    bread fruit..... the authors compiled observed incidence of homosexuality at a time when europeans could not have 'corrupted all the locals' ( my phrase)
    i.e. the argument that
    a) homosexuality is a european invention
    b) there was no homosexuality before europeans came.
    is put in doubt if (again) many incidence of homosexuality were observed before the root and branch change of african culture...
    ( thats my basic argument, i only write down what i have read)

    there are other books like Hungochani: the history of a dissident sexuality in southern Africa - Google Books
    that have, through imperical research, thorough transparency , using the same methoods that any good reseracher has used before them, complied incidence of europeans witnessing incidence that could be described as homosexuality, and native oral history of incidence of homosexuality ( this is in the hungochani book ) like the shona peoples recognising incidence of 'queer sexuality'
    or the chibanda, a caste of male diviners possessed by female spirits and referred to in early European sources as “passive sodomites”.

    again, all of this is in the book (s)...

    BREAD FRUIT, we are not just talking about one or two incidence seen sparodically, we are talking too many incidence for you to simply just brush aside... or dismiss.

    Saint Sage,

    What Europeans and others have not being able to do, is show how homsexuality is compatible with African culture. That's all I need to know. If you or any other of the books you read can do that, give me the titles. If it is not African, culturally, a foreign origin is a logical conclusion.

    The very fact that African culture centers around family (male/female) and traditionally views these relationships as sacred, is antithetical to what has been celebrated by europeans and their ancient ancestors as normal and natural.

    European academics still write books that say Africans are inferior to europeans. The fact that some of them are trying to equate their culture with Africa is not surprising, but do you really think if european behavior was as widespread in Africa, as much as some of these gay writers try and imply, this information would not have been blasted all over the world by europeans centuries ago and be common knowledge??

    Their historic non stop rant about racial superiority and being soldiers of the one and only God and his holy son, has had them telling us to this day that Africans are:

    Cannibals

    Worshippers of Satan

    Without History

    Sell their own children

    Have sex with monkeys

    Thieves

    Murderers

    Breakers of all the other commandments and cursed

    and

    Bad Parents


    With all this racial nonsense and lies they have put out for centuries, why is it only now, they have begun this overt attack on African culture with this homosexual nonsense??

    If it was there when christian missionaries where invading with their slave making brethren, they would have made sure it was written down and broadcast as another demonstration of the superiority of the white man. Think about that before you talk about the white man’s” empirical” science.

    That's the same science that 100 years ago formally saw Africans as primates. Europeans are not neutral observers in academia - their evidence is not free of bias or the influence of their culture. Africans have to understand the difference between European culture and African culture (be African centered) and know when Europeans are trying to manipulate information – knowing that with the european racism, everything they do, helps support their view that they are the superior branch of humanity.

    Even if they were to find Africans, in that massive continent who did not think that European Christian Priest (Moral standard for white behavior) behavior is unnatural, it could never match the classical (highest and most great) western societies that europeans parade to the world as the origins of their greatness. What is normal to them is not normal to us and they and those who support aligning African culture (and therefore our future), to historic europe need to get over it.

    Before there were european scientists, there were european batty bwoys. Now we have European scientists writing "objective" reports on African people where male and female relationships are representations of their links to their ancient ancestors and to their God. Even the European’s god has told them what is right, but the very custodians of their religion has showed the world that their culture is much stronger than their ability to live by a book they call holy and a measure they have used on the world.

    "In Western liberal democracy the individual is released from the ageless parameters of ancestor and family. Individuated human passion and intellect rules. The morality of expediency is born; ancestor and deity are peripheralized for immediate gratification and the glorification of sensual pleasure; markets are broadened as industry gears up to create and satiate infinitely individuated and sensually stimulated expression of emotional whelm. Homosexuality and pedophilia are equated with human rights and championed in scientific journals."


    Kwame Agyei and Akua Nson Akoto
    The Sankofa Movement
    History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals

    Omowale Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

  8. #8

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    Bread fruit I’m a bit confused when you use your statement ‘African culture’. I’m sure you know, just as I do that ‘African culture’ is not monolithic, there is no one definition of what African culture is. Africa is one of the most diverse continents on this planet. And is often filled with contradictions. Africans sold other Africans into slavery. Some are agrarian farmers whilst others are warriors (occasionally) others would simply have mental breakdowns in the case of shaka Zulu and commit mass murder (as what happened towards the end of his reign, before he was assassinated by his brothers). Some were and are still nomads. Whilst others stay in familiar groups. Some have polygamist relationships whilst others take single partners. And families are important to every culture. Implying that homosexuality is an anathema to families is almost a different subject in it self.


    The information compiled into those various books has always been out there. But the information was disparate. Either locked away pages and accounts from dusty archive cabinets, or within the folds of some ones diary. Or never talked about parts of observed, or oral folklore; such as the boy marriage tradition among Azande warriors, and the gay sex customs at the court of the Kabaka (king) of the Buganda. The dissemination of books like the ones I stumbled across would have been either banned or culturally frowned upon until recently in the west. And of course homosexuality (thanks to over a century of Christian indoctrination) like animism, or albinism is viewed as an anathema to modern-African-Christianity.

    I do not try to paint African homosexuality as either good or bad, I simply state that it has been and still is part of Africa.
    Last edited by saint sage; 06-11-10 at 01:33 PM.
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal

  9. #9

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    Saint Sage,

    I'll respond to your confusion, a little later today if time permits. By the way, your writing style in your last post is remarkably different from your usual posts over the years. I'm impressed. Is this something the board will have to get used from now on or will it just be for this thread??

    Peace
    History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals

    Omowale Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

  10. #10
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    Default

    LOL...I knew it was coming. Now Saint Sage is doing the typical "divide" in attempt to "conquer" the argument. You see here how now he has introduced the line that Afrikan culture is not "monolithic", the buzz-word we see tossed around alot in reference to Afrika when crackers and their servant arse kissers want to divide the logic in a discussion they are losing. By stating something obvious like "all Afrikans aren't the same," they use this as a gap to interject their absurd notions as if they were a reasonable possibility worth considering.
    One thing you can sell, but never buy back, is your time


  11. #11
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    Default

    I doubt seriously if we could say that any one attitude can be solely attributed to one race of people... hardly

    having not studying the study of said matter I would venture to say that every behavior among men is capable of attaching itself to anyone man if he is not trained as to what it is and it's affect positive or negative...

    certain tendacies certainly had to first come from this or that tribe as did homosexuality was said to be strong in Sodom and i believe that the tribe of benjamin was said to be some how particular to sodomy...

    it may have started with white people but we have become subject to it... and i go on record saying that it is not natural for a man to have sex with a man nor a woman with a woman... nothing but a perverse pleasure can be achieved in such a relationship...

    i believe that homosexuality is one of the most selfish sins that can ever be committed... in and of itself it shows the person who is committed to it to be willing just for lust to go against nature...
    Last edited by meknow; 08-11-10 at 03:41 AM.
    It is what it is...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by meknow View Post
    I doubt seriously if we could say that any one attitude can be solely attributed to one race of people... hardly

    having not studying the study of said matter I would venture to say that every behavior among men is capable of attaching itself to anyone man if he is not trained as to what it is and it's affect positive or negative...

    certain tendacies certainly had to first come from this or that tribe as did homosexuality was said to be strong in Sodom and i believe that the tribe of benjamin was said to be some how particular to sodomy...

    it may have started with white people but we have become subject to it... and i go on record saying that it is not natural for a man to have sex with a man nor a woman with a woman... nothing but a perverse pleasure can be achieved in such a relationship...

    i believe that homosexuality is one of the most selfish sins that can ever be committed... in and of itself it shows the person who is committed to it to be willing just for lust to go against nature...
    Of course anyone is malleable to it, as it is a societal/cultural influence. That is the only argument. It has been documented quite well that once Afrikans are imbued by Western culture there is this incidence of homosexuality previously unseen in traditional Afrikan culture.
    One thing you can sell, but never buy back, is your time


  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shemsi en Tehuti View Post
    LOL...I knew it was coming. Now Saint Sage is doing the typical "divide" in attempt to "conquer" the argument. You see here how now he has introduced the line that Afrikan culture is not "monolithic", the buzz-word we see tossed around alot in reference to Afrika when crackers and their servant arse kissers want to divide the logic in a discussion they are losing. By stating something obvious like "all Afrikans aren't the same," they use this as a gap to interject their absurd notions as if they were a reasonable possibility worth considering.
    I spotted this too saint sage what happening bro, I'mma lil concerned

  14. #14

    Default

    Desperately Seeking Susan




    "Europeans were by no means the pioneer of human civilization. Half of man’s recorded history had passed before anyone in Europe could read or write. The priests of Egypt began to keep written records between 4000 and 3000 B.C., but more than two thousand years later, the poems of Homer were still being circulated in the Greek city-states by word of mouth. Shortly after 3000 B.C., while the pharaohs were building the first pyramids, Europeans were creating nothing more distinguished than huge garbage heaps."

    R. R. Palmer and Joel Colton
    A History of the Modern World





    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    Bread fruit I’m a bit confused when you use your statement ‘African culture’. I’m sure you know, just as I do that ‘African culture’ is not monolithic, there is no one definition of what African culture is. Africa is one of the most diverse continents on this planet.
    Your confusion lies with your use of the term culture. When you speak of the culture of a people, you are talking about the overarching themes in attitudes, beliefs, ideology and behavior. To say that the Korean language is American culture would be inaccurate even though Koreans are American citizens. To say that a great interest in popular sports is a feature of American culture, would be correct, because that activity is common through most ethnic groups, that constitute the American people.

    Likewise, African culture refers to that which African people share and makes them distinct as a people. Your points about the differences between African people do not take away from our common cultural inheritance, generated from millennia of living together on the same land mass - separated geographically by other peoples who migrated away from Africa, 10’s of thousands of years ago.

    Differences do exist in Africa but the common past, draws together the culture, regardless of ethic or religious contradictions. African people know this instinctively and call each other Brother and Sister in recognition.

    Family, based upon male and female groups, supported by extended members, with a revered respect for elders and acknowledged roles in rearing and protecting children deemed precious, is one aspect of African culture which can be contrasted with the european’s view of the elderly as a problem and their young historically victims of abuse.

    This talk of there being no "one" African culture is directly linked to the racists lies that Africans are backward and have no worthwhile history. By saying Africans have no culture (qualitative history), one instantly falls into the trap made by racists. If Africans do exist, but have no culture, then logically, they must be a backward people. The human subconscious does not look to reason once you have set the rules on words and their use. The mind will accept Africans have no culture, if you say so.

    "I am an invisible man....I am a man of substance, flesh and bone, fiber and liquids – and I might even be said to possess a mind. I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me…When they approach me they see only my surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination – indeed, everything and anything except me.”

    Ralph Ellison
    The Invisible Man


    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    And families are important to every culture. Implying that homosexuality is an anathema to families is almost a different subject in it self.
    Well Saint Sage, that depends on what you and europeans call family. Marimba Ani writes, "Homosexuality is not associated with African civilization since African cultural values place priority on female-male conjugal relationship as the basis of the 'extended' family and for the procreation of children." [Yurugu] Europeans have openly said that the basis for family for THEM, can be male/male and female/female. That is their choice and consistent with their greek and roman history which they say defines their culture.

    Families are indeed important to all cultures but the essential values and philosophies that create those families are clearly not all the same. Indeed if the European has perverted or destroyed other people’s cultures, should we really accept men with men, women with women as "family" for ourselves when this is clearly not African. Why not let the white man define reality for himself and leave us alone??

    Does the European care soo much about us that they want us to enjoy the "things" they enjoy or is there another motive for their homosexual assault on the African globally? Have they suddenly after 500 years realized that they were bad and now want to “love” and repair Black people???

    The US government, it went on, had threatened to expel Uganda from the African Growth and Opportunities Act (AGOA), an agreement the US had made with several African countries in 2000, to get leeway to export products duty-free to the US market. The newspaper had seen a letter written by US Congressman Ron Wyden, to Hillary Clinton on January 12th (this year) saying: “I strongly urge you to communicate immediately to the Ugandan government and President Museveni directly, that Uganda’s beneficiary status under AGOA will be revoked should the proposed legislation (the Gays Bill) be enacted.”

    The letter added: “Beneficiaries of AGOA must meet certain eligibility criteria, one of which is to not engage in “gross violations of internationally recognized human rights””.

    But, precisely, Uganda is not among the nations that accepts gay behaviour as a human right. As Ssekandi put it, albeit bluntly (for some tastes): “As Black people the way we understand this issue (homosexuality) is not the same way the Whites understand it, and we should be able to decide our own ways without being influenced.”

    The US government, it went on, had threatened to expel Uganda from the African Growth and Opportunities Act (AGOA), an agreement the US had made with several African countries in 2000, to get leeway to export products duty-free to the US market.

    The newspaper had seen a letter written by US Congressman Ron Wyden, to Hillary Clinton on January 12th (this year) saying: “I strongly urge you to communicate immediately to the Ugandan government and President Museveni directly, that Uganda’s beneficiary status under AGOA will be revoked should the proposed legislation (the Gays Bill) be enacted.”


    http://www.speroforum.com/a/25726/Hi...lism-in-Africa

    History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals

    Omowale Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Breadfruit View Post
    [CENTER]

    The US government, it went on, had threatened to expel Uganda from the African Growth and Opportunities Act (AGOA), an agreement the US had made with several African countries in 2000, to get leeway to export products duty-free to the US market. The newspaper had seen a letter written by US Congressman Ron Wyden, to Hillary Clinton on January 12th (this year) saying: “I strongly urge you to communicate immediately to the Ugandan government and President Museveni directly, that Uganda’s beneficiary status under AGOA will be revoked should the proposed legislation (the Gays Bill) be enacted.”

    The letter added: “Beneficiaries of AGOA must meet certain eligibility criteria, one of which is to not engage in “gross violations of internationally recognized human rights””.

    But, precisely, Uganda is not among the nations that accepts gay behaviour as a human right. As Ssekandi put it, albeit bluntly (for some tastes): “As Black people the way we understand this issue (homosexuality) is not the same way the Whites understand it, and we should be able to decide our own ways without being influenced.”

    The US government, it went on, had threatened to expel Uganda from the African Growth and Opportunities Act (AGOA), an agreement the US had made with several African countries in 2000, to get leeway to export products duty-free to the US market.

    The newspaper had seen a letter written by US Congressman Ron Wyden, to Hillary Clinton on January 12th (this year) saying: “I strongly urge you to communicate immediately to the Ugandan government and President Museveni directly, that Uganda’s beneficiary status under AGOA will be revoked should the proposed legislation (the Gays Bill) be enacted.”


    http://www.speroforum.com/a/25726/Hi...lism-in-Africa

    "Western-style" democracy at work?

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemsi en Tehuti View Post
    LOL...I knew it was coming. Now Saint Sage is doing the typical "divide" in attempt to "conquer" the argument. You see here how now he has introduced the line that Afrikan culture is not "monolithic", the buzz-word we see tossed around alot in reference to Afrika when crackers and their servant arse kissers want to divide the logic in a discussion they are losing. By stating something obvious like "all Afrikans aren't the same," they use this as a gap to interject their absurd notions as if they were a reasonable possibility worth considering.
    ...whats the absurdity ?
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal

  17. #17

    Default

    Desperately Seeking Susan - Continued



    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    The information compiled into those various books has always been out there. But the information was disparate. Either locked away pages and accounts from dusty archive cabinets, or within the folds of some ones diary. Or never talked about parts of observed, or oral folklore; such as the boy marriage tradition among Azande warriors, and the gay sex customs at the court of the Kabaka (king) of the Buganda.
    Saint Sage, when researching this part of your post, guess what?? I found ¾ of your last sentence, word for word, on another message board. But it continued to talk about white people (Christians) being around preaching the good news – not a pre contact with white people moment. Sorry. Also, the Azande warriors did not participate in anal “sex” by the way. Apparently the very idea, they found repulsive. Here’s that post I found:

    …such as the boy marriage tradition among Azande warriors, and the gay sex customs at the court of the Kabaka (king) of the Buganda. It would be a stretch to call it "gay love" since those who did not submit to penetration - as a result of having recently been indoctrinated into Christian beliefs - were decapitated.

    http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=89338&articleId=320657&func=5 &channel=People+Connection


    Any thoughts??

    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    The dissemination of books like the ones I stumbled across would have been either banned or culturally frowned upon until recently in the west.
    And my point still stands. White people would never have let homosexuality in Africa go mass unreported!!! They saw themselves as the word and power of the Christian god and would have shown African homosexuality as another sign of Africans being heathen, unchristian in manner, dysfunctional and most of all sinful. That’s how racial propaganda works today, never mind centuries ago, before our ancestors realized what the hell contact with white people meant and challenged these nice white people carrying black books, wearing black dresses and talking about a blonde blued eyed man who wants you to accept his love and kisses.

    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    And of course homosexuality (thanks to over a century of Christian indoctrination) like animism, or albinism is viewed as an anathema to modern-African-Christianity.
    Keep it African centered Sage. Christianity came out of Africa when people studied the ancient religions of the Nile Valley. As Africans, we were not waiting for no missionary to come to teach us about God. Who worships God and believes in the power and reality of Spirit more than us?

    “All the things that we consider, viz, the symbolism, teachings, doctrines and Templates of Christianity, certainly since the Council of Nicea May-August 325 A.D. and Judeo-Christian religion all came out of an Afrikan matrix, construct and experience, particularly distilled through ancient Egypt”

    Gerald Massey
    Ancient Egypt: Light of the World



    The white man says he discovers people who were already there, wherever they landed in their incredible arrogance. No history exists before them and nobody but them exists after they “civilize” you. Either you accept their brain washing or die, has been their theme song for centuries. Our ancestors gave us instruction on how to live and the world took our wisdom and built itself. Africa and its culture is that great – and we should love ourselves and understand that people destroy our history and culture because they hate us and prefer we exist as ignorant slaves, and not know self, forever. As soon as europeans broke in and stole from African burial grounds (Pyramids), by reading the texts left by our ancestors, they knew the Egyptians were African, because they knew their european ancestors never lived the lives, they found written in those tombs. No way! No how!!

    Laws of Maat (at least 5000 years old)

    1. I have not done inequity.
    2. I have not robbed with violence.
    3. I have not done violence to any man.
    4. I have not committed theft.
    5. I have slain neither man nor woman.
    6. I have not made light the bushel.
    7. I have not acted deceitfully.
    8. I have not purloined the things which belong to God.
    9. I have not uttered falsehood.
    10. I have not carried off goods by force.
    11. I have not uttered vile (or evil) words.
    12. I have not carried off food by force.
    13. I have not acted deceitfully.
    14. I have not lost my temper and become angry.
    15. I have invaded no man's land.
    16. I have not slaughtered animals which are the possessions of God.
    17. I have not laid to waste the lands which have been ploughed.
    18. I have not pried into matters to make mischief.
    19. I have not set my mouth in motion against any man.
    20. I have not given way to wrath without due cause.
    21. I have not committed fornication, and I have not committed sodomy.
    22. I have not polluted myself.
    23. I have not lain with the wife of a man.
    24. I have not made any man to be afraid.
    25. I have not made my speech to burn with anger.
    26. I have not made myself deaf unto the words of right and truth.
    27. I have not made another person weep.
    28. I have not uttered blasphemies.
    29. I have not acted with violence.
    30. I have not acted without due consideration.
    31. I have not pierced my skin and I have not taken vengeance on the god.
    32. I have not multiplied my speech beyond what should be said.
    33. I have not committed fraud, and I have not looked upon evil.
    34. I have never uttered curses against the king.
    35. I have not fouled running water.
    36. I have not exalted my speech.
    37. I have not uttered curses against God.
    38. I have not behaved with insolence.
    39. I have not been guilty of favoritism.
    40. I have not increased my wealth except by means of such things as my own possessions.
    41. I have not uttered curses against that which belongeth to God and is with me.
    42. I have not thought scorn of the god or the city.


    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    I do not try to paint African homosexuality as either good or bad, I simply state that it has been and still is part of Africa.
    And I said that homosexuality is not African - our ancient roots did not revel in that behavior as did the ancestors that Europe is soo proud of today. Give the European what is the Europeans and leave the African with their identity and culture.

    White policemen shoot dead unarmed, handcuffed on the floor, young African men in America today. We are not objects for white people to do whatever they want to, say whatever they want to, “educate” however they deem fit. Accepting European cultural norms and values that negate our experience and sense of reality, is just another way of Africans killing themselves, while giving life to others - exactly like welcoming a vampire into your home.

    Have you seen the films where the cross offers no protection to the mortal and Dracula laughs?? What makes Dracula soo strong and the victim pathetic and defenseless? There’s a lot to learn about the european mind from studying their art.

    Peace
    Last edited by Breadfruit; 08-11-10 at 06:00 PM.
    History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals

    Omowale Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Breadfruit View Post
    [CENTER]



    Your confusion lies with your use of the term culture. When you speak of the culture of a people, you are talking about the overarching themes in attitudes, beliefs, ideology and behavior. To say that the Korean language is American culture would be inaccurate even though Koreans are American citizens. To say that a great interest in popular sports is a feature of American culture, would be correct, because that activity is common through most ethnic groups, that constitute the American people.

    Likewise, African culture refers to that which African people share and makes them distinct as a people.


    Your points about the differences between African people do not take away from our common cultural inheritance, generated from millennia of living together on the same land mass - separated geographically by other peoples who migrated away from Africa, 10’s of thousands of years ago.




    Differences do exist in Africa but the common past, draws together the culture, regardless of ethic or religious contradictions. African people know this instinctively and call each other Brother and Sister in recognition.

    Well Saint Sage, that depends on what you and europeans call family. Marimba Ani writes, "Homosexuality is not associated with African civilization since African cultural values place priority on female-male conjugal relationship as the basis of the 'extended' family and for the procreation of children." [Yurugu] Europeans have openly said that the basis for family for THEM, can be male/male and female/female. That is their choice and consistent with their greek and roman history which they say defines their culture.



    Families are indeed important to all cultures but the essential values and philosophies that create those families are clearly not all the same. Indeed if the European has perverted or destroyed other people’s cultures, should we really accept men with men, women with women as "family" for ourselves when this is clearly not African. Why not let the white man define reality for himself and leave us alone??



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    1) why is homosexuality clearly not african ? i've cut and pasted account after account of incidence pointing to the contrary. in all the accounts that i sited african homosexuality did not supplant male/ female conjugal relationships, it simply existed alongside it.
    2) if you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe that we are all descended from the same ancestors and that language, much like culture is just a variance of a single original-model/root/proto-langague . if you really look at all the cultures of the world you will see that there is far more similarity than difference.
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint sage View Post
    1) why is homosexuality clearly not african ? i've cut and pasted account after account of incidence pointing to the contrary. in all the accounts that i sited african homosexuality did not supplant male/ female conjugal relationships, it simply existed alongside it.
    2) if you believe in evolutionary theory, then you believe that we are all descended from the same ancestors and that language, much like culture is just a variance of a single original-model/root/proto-langague . if you really look at all the cultures of the world you will see that there is far more similarity than difference.
    Pointing to the contrary of what? and by whom? This is an area that is just not registering with you.

    The funniest one liner prize award still goes to a comment in your very first post, you wrote
    Code:
     " Homophobia is more colonial than the practice of homosexuality in Africa. The contradiction could not be starker."
    So the racist white man who has always practised homosexuality/paedophilia, came to Africa and stopped Africans practising homosexuality because it was alien to the white man.

    Let me tell you something from OUR history, during the enslavement period they would tie up the biggest, blackest, strongest male, they would beat and whip him to within a whisker of his life in front of all the other enslaved people, after that they (white racist) would sodomize him, rape him so everybody could see what happens when you get to big for your boots. After that, the women didn't want their sons to go through those things and would raise US not to stir up trouble maybe even try to make us submissive for our own protection.

    That is OUR history which nobody wants to talk about.... and I don't blame them, and for me to come here on this forum and read the nonsense that you are writing tells me that you yourself are either a homosexual or a promosexual, (a black person who whilst not homosexual, actively promotes homosexual amongst other black people), or a black person that is engaged in sexual relations with a white person.
    Last edited by Jay Jay; 08-11-10 at 11:34 PM.
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    4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
    5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
    6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
    7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
    8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
    9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
    Gen 19:4-10 (KJV)
    It is what it is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by meknow View Post
    4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
    5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
    6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
    7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
    8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
    9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
    Gen 19:4-10 (KJV)
    I must respectfully ask what this has to do with homosexuality IN PRECOLONIAL AFRIKA? I was watching Discover Channel the other day and many archaeologists are convinced they've actually found the 2 cities Sodom and Gomorrah. The inhabitants were none other than cracker-folks and/or the Semites that followed...
    One thing you can sell, but never buy back, is your time


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shemsi en Tehuti View Post
    I must respectfully ask what this has to do with homosexuality IN PRECOLONIAL AFRIKA? I was watching Discover Channel the other day and many archaeologists are convinced they've actually found the 2 cities Sodom and Gomorrah. The inhabitants were none other than cracker-folks and/or the Semites that followed...
    Got me dere...it has nothing to do with that subject... just a toss in... sorry...

    not sure what ethnicity they were... i will trace the geneology back...
    Last edited by meknow; 09-11-10 at 02:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meknow View Post
    Got me dere...it has nothing to do with that subject... just a toss in... sorry...

    not sure what ethnicity they were... i will trace the geneology back...
    LOL...okay, you just sharing your faith's doctrine. I can dig it. Peace...
    One thing you can sell, but never buy back, is your time


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    Think perhaps, as Mr Breadfruit mentioned, Saint Sage is getting himself in a twist looking for incidents of homosexuality on the continent but failing to understand that it was not part of our culture, as in accepted as a social norm and ingrained into a social fabric as it is and has always been in europe... also think that many join forums and talk to people, weary of and at times assuming some kind of petty bias when a point is being made, discarding information given as close to some loose conspiracy theory rather than an active means of coming to an understanding of ourselves.

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    in my previous posts i was pointing to books that i was quoting from. one of them ( i'm unable to open a direct link from the computer that im using so i'll put up this link to illustrate the point. )

    Same-Sex Dynamics Among Nineteenth-Century Americans: A Mormon Example
    Homomarital marital gender roles and cross dressing
    Same-Sex Dynamics Among Nineteenth ... - Google Books

    The account of the boy brides was witnessed by 19th century mormons, and then by anthropologists, it took place at a time of converting alot of people. the source that i'm using points to willing and unwilling participants. and my source is closer to the original source than you are using. the source doesnot mention a long period of 'western homosexual indoctrination' ( my phrase) either.

    ...i'm cutting and pasting this very large section so that you can a) read for yourself and b)follow the review of the book to it's original source and make up your own mind ( the review was taken from the book )

    Marc Epprecht - Hungochani: The History Of A Dissi-
    An insightful examination of homosexuality being "un-African" - Marc Epprecht - Hungochani: The History Of A Dissident Sexuality In Southern Africa - Epinions.com.

    Epprecht's archival research shows beyond any reasonable doubt that "that male-male sexual relations were quietly taking place among Africans became obvious to the invaders as soon as they set up their police and court structure. Within the first full year of operations of magistrates' courts in the tiny pioneer outposts of Salisbury and Umtali, no less than five cases of sodomy and indecent assault by men upon men or boys came to trial. None involved a white man." He found records of 450 cases between 1892 and 1935. Whites were accused in only 39 of these, and 15 of these were white-on-white.

    Both some testimony to the official commissions and in court cases showed that nkotshana relationships (boy wives providing domestic as well as sexual services to their adult male husbands) were common in "the homelands," in addition to being very pervasive in mining residential compounds where women were not allowed (nearby, let alone inside of). There was evidence (ignored in writing the reports) of desire on the part of some of the "exploited" boys and even some of mutuality and reciprocity—though affection was more usual. (Epprecht reminds the reader that "boy" has been used for African (as for African American) adults (lifelong children in need of paternalistic control), although most of those playing the wife role seem to have been younger than the husbands who partly supported them with gifts and parts of their wages.

    Court testimony does not always delve deeply into the feelings of the accused. One instance that did is that of Njebe, a 16-year-old, accused of sodomy with his uncle (a widower of about 40): "We loved one another....I live in the same hut with him. I sleep with him always and have done so for a long time. I have no blanket. Accsd has one. We sleep under the same blanket.... [Since the death of his aunt] I have been the accsd's 'wife."... Every time accsd had connection with me he allowed me to do the same to him. We did it in the hut and also in the veld. I never objected to accsd doing what we did before because it was not painful and I did it to him.... Were it not that I was afraid I might become pregnant, I would have let accsd go on doing the act always."

    Epprecht discusses homosexuality recorded or alleged about whites in southeastern Africa, too, including Cecil Rhodes (who was definitely homosocial and always surrounded by handsome youth, but whose sexual behavior is unknown). He chronicles the concerted efforts by Christian missionaries to demonize "sodomites" as damned and as "un-African"—and to "counter traditional practices that allowed for child spacing" (of which going away and taking a boy wife was only one of many).


    it wasn't really Necessary to publicise african homosexuality/ paint it in a negative light by this time because the colonial masters already controlled what they wanted.
    reality is 9/10 a state of mind ....iam black, and ethereal


 
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