@ Run and Backatya

SDK has a compelling way of highlighting what is and making it easy innit!!

Ihad to llow thediscussion when he smashed myargument LOL

SDK respect man I like how you speak

Soofresh, to be fair to brother Kunjufu there was a lot before those last two posts that you seemed to ignore.

Sista Africa; nonot a forfeiter

SDK, totally agre with the concept/fact of you are where you arebased on the choices you havemade.

FredB youalwayshave the answers to my fears/concerns. Man I wish I'd met you years ago!niceone.gif

DrunkMonkey wrote: DM; Rotflmao...I know exactly what you mean...blkscholar, however in the context of David Matthews drivel the other day..isn't it fascinating to realise just how many heavy weight brothers we have contributing to BNV at this moment, any of these brothers can respond to and put into context any argument with a quality response.. This is leadership at its best, i hope others learn from and strive to be better than those we consider consummate posters here on Blacknet..

Personally i know that i've been in a good debate when I've got to reaserch and underpin my argument with references and quality perspectives.. Althought this is not exactly what was meant by SDK in regards to workstudy, i think this type of debate is the next best thing in this.....lots of learning points for both sides of the argument

Incognito wrote:

Quote:

I actually witnesses an oil tanker, progressing along a road,in Kingston, with a giant swastika, daubed onits side.

Quote:

Had to explain to my Jamaican associates the significance of both the symbol and"artist".

@ FB - The authority. Simple.

@ Kunjufu - Your criticisms are valid, because these contraditions are used within organisations to stifle growth and rule usby dogma and tradition - the contradictions are never investigated, stagnating intellectual growth.



@SoooFresh - Someone so young, but yet so consistentandarticulatein an Ideology used to further us in Diaspora -Inspiring!Peace and BlessingsSis.



@RUN - Yes, Soldier. I can see your a man who won't pull the trigger until clarification - after that, its all over for the other side, your obviously not looking to take any prisoners Bro.



@DM -I hear you Bro, your questions were at the heart of the thread, and helped keep the focus. Power Bro.



@Backatya - Your definition, has now entered by operational manual.Too be taught to all new recruits to the movement, standard.


@ Mansamusa - Tell them man for me to, "Don't bring them gal to my yard"


@All

@Incognito said"FredB you always have the answers to my fears/concerns. Man I wish I'd met you years ago!"

Man you sound like me when I meet certains sisters and say god give me a time machine. I would fix up that woman hi hi hi. But seriously. I have said the same thing on more occassions than I care to remember.

But as my old Caribbean mother says son nothing before its time and everything is there for a reason. But let me share something with you brother and it is a personal philosphy which was first taught to me about public speaking and I carry it on here. I talk or communicate for one person and one person alone. I never think about numbers, because I am about quality and know one good man and woman is worth ten, especially in this cultural madness we have in this society. So that is the person you wish to talk to on serious important threads like this.

I know this. That there is always somebody like me the communicator out there who not only takes time to seriously understand what is being said, but is looking for that information beyond the normal level of stuff. Because that is my natural disposition. People who are beyond problem stating and into problem solving. I know that because I was and am that person and I know many of my close people are exactly the same.

People are different in thier conciousness as they are in their personalities and natural tendencies etc. Moreover we often talk about stuff at the problem stage which is life because we are all coming from different levels and experiences. But most of these basic issues have been answered from long time, because these are the issue which we have to face when dealing with them in real life and on large scale. Also better minds than ours have grappled with them. So most of these condundrums have been resolved to a significant degree, even though these are always ongoing matters which are always rexamined in due course.

When we enter the struggle at various stages it is a new education in dealing with reality and the complexity involved and that cannot be bought in books. All that you have read simply has to be rewritten in the face of reality as Cabral said and that is not a joke. It can only be passed on by those who have done it or doing it. Failing that we spend good time reinventing the wheel rather than perfecting it and moving forward.

Everybody who works in particular areas at certain levels will have had to tackle complex theoretical issues both before they take on the work and while they are doing it. For example if you were a first line supervisor of a security division with 5 people under you. You will already know who the enemies of your people are black or white the shape they come in, whether they be adult male or female and how to respond to them in any set of circumstances. Decisions have to be made in seconds so intellectualising is out the window.

If for example women come with some destructive moves we don't hold a seminar to thrash things the rights or wrongs or the various contradictions or how this or that can be seen or whatever. We act and deal with that later. And in every area you will find people having to develop practical operational responses to things which have to avoid all these condundrums whether it is education or economics.

Once fundamental principles and values and objectives are not violated or compromised that is why people are given responsibility to make sure action and movement happens. That is what creates critical mass and movement. Like they say the most brilliant military strategy has never won a war, its the capacity and willingness to fight that does....From there we get praxis which is theory derived from experience.

So my view is this. If I die tonight that kind of information will die with those of us who know it and use it within our circles already. But it is denied to that one person who has the mind and motivation to take and use that information. Of course there is limits to what can be said. But you have a duty to point the minority so inclined in the right direction.

The reality is this my brother. NO liberation movement worth tuppance accepts people on a open door basis or because they are THE PEOPLE or on simple skin colour. That is why mass organisations are at their weakest at the point of greatest expansion. Expand too quick you let in too many of THE PEOPLE who will wreck it before it gets off the ground. Study the Panthers and Garvey and see what I mean.

Security divisions spend more time monitoring members and associates than the enemy because that is where the madness comes from which they leap on. Most organisations implode through internal madness not external attack, external attack unites healthy organisations and make them even tougher to beat. So knowing who our emnemies are was our buisiness and they tend to be black and come in all guises. Because these people will cause harm and anyone who does that ipsofacto is the enemey.

Hence why I prefer generally single sex organisatons, especially if you are dealing with large numbers of people especially around particular age groups. Because the destructive effects of unregulated simple human behaviour, jealousy and madness of the average person of average conciousness can swamp an organisation.

Very simple equation. So conciousness in the wider community and what that means in an organised and disciplined community are different things indeed.

FBniceone.gif

@RFYW sorry bro beeen tied up. You said
-----------------------------------------------------------
"FredBlack said

Fundamentals are defined well before mass movement. Small groups of people work out fundamentals not mass movements. Don't need mass movement to know that white women harms black people, to know baby mother and single parent families for fun is against black people's interest or the promotion of particular cultural values etc.

OK FB, if you don't have a mass movement how are the ideas being promoted within those small groups communicated to - every one who may benefit from them?


1. The starting point is your cultural reference. Leadership outside the home eg political social is one thing. But the basics of any healthy society comes from within. So parents and family are responisble for certain stuff and leaders outside for other things. The issue of white women not being exceptable in normal circumstances does not come from outsiders. My parents and people taught me that from knee high.

Your question is also based on an implicit assumption how movements develop which I do not necessariy argeee. Eg all who would want to hear it. As opposed to who you wish to communicate it to or want to hear it. Which is something different and based on your strategy. If you want mass movement there is an approach if you choose other models then there are others.

Small groups communicate to the mass if that is their desire or strategy by seeking a public platform and forms of communication and activity to bring that about.

FB said

Don't need mass movement to know that white women harms black people, to know baby mother and single parent families for fun is against black people's interest or the promotion of particular cultural values

How are they supposed to know that FB? What if nobody ever tells them?

Excellent question. But hear this. This again depends on your strategy and analysis. The fact of life is this, there are people due to no choice of their own find themselves cut offf from stuff. It is not possible to ensure that every persons needs can be met nor is it desirable from basic practical terms. Things develop in stages and in between every stage there are people who miss out as it is not possible to create some safety net to catch all the community.

So do we stop our activities because somebody or section miss out. Sorry no...We work hard and attempt to improve to widen our coverage.

In fact I don't even believe in that type of model myself. Masss movements do not build strategic institutions or infrastructures.

Part of the reason these topics are dominated by the same names here on Blacknet is I suspect partly due to the fact that many feel alienated by the language and lofty ideas that are bandied about.



Names and ideologies that most people have never heard.

Rather than include we exclude the very people we should be reaching out to.

I agree with you. But again this is where the pedal of reality hits the metal. The facts are this all discussions of most types are dominated by small numbers. Even at mass consultation excercises in communist and similar states. At university a small group dominate stuff even amongst the most educated. As in reasonings. I use to attend Rasta reasonsings with hundreds of people and only 5 men talk. Quite right we did not have the confidence as they were dealing with heavy stuff which most of us could not contribute to at that level. But when it done we chat in our own circles and crew.

Again it is romaticism. Let me show you. Malcolm X was a very basic communicator talking the really the lowest common element. He would take two hours to explain a very basic principle. That was his job. Malcolm X could never talk to people other than that in the movement in that manner and did not.That is why he could deal with university professors. So it is who people are communicating with and why. It is your assumption that the lowest common factor should be communicated with. Not mine because they are not the most important group in the first or second instnance in crreating the necessary things.

This is about reducation in a big way. Look we talk about the pyramids. But the average man was probably pulling and lifting not designing or engineering or coordinating shit. Social class and distinction is fundamental part of African and other socitey as it is in the movement. Who do you think build those organisatons. The man on road? Highly educated people produced Malcolm X my brother in every single way. Who do you think built CAribbean and African worker associations and unions the man in the canefeild. Come on brother.

"
If we think we know something - then we must teach it to those who don't know. We do not condemn and attack our own people just because they don't know what we think we know.

It depends what the issue is my dear brother. Our people are not children and it is like when you teach you have to asssume a level or no teaching can take place. As some Rasta teacher said to me when I tell you to sit down I assuem you will sit down on the chair and not the fish tank. Garvey use to blaze people for joke quite unneccesarily in my mind. But he did not tolerate any fool. A certain amount of education people have to do for themselves and ask their own question. Are we to assume people know nothing. Well sorry for them.

"We have to win the argument, by being able to answer all the challenges to our thinking".


I hear you bro. But don't actually agree. Take it to the people to do what exactly? You see I don't think that is how you actually mobilise people. I know that is how people envisage it but that is not reality.

It is supreme arrogance to go about with the idea that only a small group of "politically experienced" activists know all the answers.

Who said that?....

Well you are putting words into my mouth nobody knows all the answers. But if you think you are going to canvass the whole community to tell you what exactly. Arrogance means to assume something you are not in the position to.And I suggest canvassing the street is not the way you build structures. I have participated in these mass excercises they cost a whole heap and what you get is really not worth the effort other than making people feel good. But it produces nothing.

If you want to for example set up a community school and you have identified the need the first people you need to talk with is the people with the knowhow to create and run that school and handle all the logistics before you go to talk to anyone. We did not canvass mass opinion to develop a national security strategy. What do they know about the subject in the first place for us to be consulting anybody. The organisation brings together its top people nationally with professional and other experience to draw up its plans. The strategy is successful and people support it. What so the man on the road developed Garvey's Black Star Liner strategy. Don't think so.

So I suggest you need to study how things develop and simply not assume that the streets have the answers because we know they don't and never have done. Garvey did not canvasss the streets or any organisation for that mattter. The Black Panther Party was created in the university of Calafornia not down town LA and that is the reality, The ANC and every other movement.

It is romantic for people to think canvassing the streets and all that stuff. But it is not reality. I know of not one organisation of quality of any racial group which formed in that manner. Elites create organisations not the man on road and that is a fact. The basic policies are made by them and if they use a strategy to expand or recruit then they find means to communicatet that. But they don't wait to speak to me or you before they do that.

Any organisation I have been a member was started long before me and most of the policies were well in place and that is the reality. You accept them or you don't or have the influence and capcity to change them. What do you believe when our organisation dominated our borough we ran around canvassing people. Not on your life. Here are our policies you like them or not. Enough did and that is good enough. Intelligent leaders only seek to educate sufficiently so that they can do something with it not for the simple sake of it. So we talk to one thousand people and do what with them?

I worked as as senior policy advisor for professional organisations. Do you think we consulted every person. Since when? We speak to the key players senior managers, trade unions etc. People employ well paid and qualified people to develop their stuff who know what will work and be acceptable and what wont.

Do you think it is humanly possile to build an organisation in the manner you have described?. TEll me of one major organisation you know of which has?. As I said my brother organisations stuff is elite stuff and always have been from day one.

"It is clear to me that that is not true. To go forward we need consensus among as many as possible - to get consensus we have win to have the argument by persuasion and by leading by example".


We need no concensus that is another popular myth which many promote to sit and do nothing. So we wait for a concensus that will never come. NOt you but the argument. As I say all the time think about the struggle in practical simple terms. How is it possible to build a concensus before you act? What are your underlying assumptions behind this concensus thing. Do you assume given our difficulites and fundamental differences and values that you can get a consensus?

You act and from that build a base of support. You develop something which a group or even one person thinks is a good idea. The test of your idea is others think it is good. You need no concensus to start or none to advance other than some support from your target group. You want to start projects for young boys you don't have to talk to THE PEOPLE you get a handful of experienced brothers and fathers and kick off. Nothing elitist about that, because that is how you do it.


Furhermore your question assume that your situation and context could actually produce a concensus? Lenin is the master here. Its not about concensus but about who can win support by taking the right steps in particular situations. A concensus is not needed but the being able to command sufficient support in the first instance to be more powerful than your inital competitors. That is more closer to the reality.

"We have to roll up our sleeves and go where people need to be organised. We involve ourselves in issues of concern to our people. Those who are experienced must impart their know-how to others".


Again dear brother well intended but means what. First who doesn't need to be educated and organised?. Every sector and section of society can benefit from that. The question is what is your priorities based on your analysis of the bigger picture. Also there is a little point of practicality. Let me give you a classic problem with mass movement models. You charge around the place talking to people etc in order to do what with them?. As you have no structures of substance or programmes already working and establshed to introduce them to. Because who creates the programmes etc. Not the people. So in three years time you have a basic memember to do what with? That is why you have the classic problem of organisations with members but no programmes.

Mass movements of that type is about seizing power not building power. They are completely different things. Let me give you a practical example in something I know. You go and talk the people on the streets on the issue of security matters affecting our people and use your approach. I will get a team of experenced leaders of that area to put together a plan of action and work. Whose plan are you going to put your money on? By the time you even get the basic material it could be all over.

I participated in one of the largest consultation excercise a grassrootso organisation ever held. Do you know the bulk of the information we got was useless. Most of the stuff people tell you we know already long time. And in fact we get more better information from our Sunday meetings with a couple of hundred people than speaking to 7-8000 people on large estates. People feel good when you talk and consult with them etc and you can recruit some good people, but compare the cost to the benefits. NOt worth it most of the time.

I was a project manager for a large development in South London we consulted people like rass most of the stuff we got was useless and we could have simply called particular people into our office and pick their brains. A lot of money wasted for what. The residents felt good but from a planning and managerial point of view most of the info was shit.

It is simply a myth. People telling us we need schools and some more businesses and things for children. What we don't know that. Better spend your time setting up them things and annoucing that your open for business.


So as I said bro there is a lot of misunderstanding about movements and a lot of it is romanticsim. Small groups work because it means the average man can actually do something and get off his arse with minimal resources and start to build out from there. He actually has an environment to learn and develop his own leadership and those of others and then expand outward etc. Waiting for mass movement is like waiting for the Clapham Omnibus. Aint happening for now. YOu can actually do the same thing without the hassle and problems.

If you were to canvasss most people who had experience in large organisations or mass type formations now and ask them knowing what they know now would they tommorow join a mass movementI can guarenteee most will say no. Only those who have never studied these things hard or been in them will argue to the contrary. What we need is far more sophisticated than that. But then that is my view. You see beyond the rhetoric of all these things there is a down side and costs and people who know that put that into the equation.


FB
niceone.gif

FredB, your ability to gauge the precise perspective of where the questions are coming from is admirable.

Faced with the same dilemma (even oppression), from building an army to 'if you can't beat them join them', different characters and personalities will make different choices.

Personally I've always been one to lay the foundations before embarking on any enterprise. It usually means I end up doing things last but I never turn back once I start the doing. A phrase that sums me up is 'I may walk slowly but I never walk backwards'.

When it comes to getting educated I've always argued the case that regardless of the system get qualified then re-evaluate your position from there. This has always been my argumentagainst people who use the system as their reasoning for not getting educated.

On the other hand, if I approach something with the masses directly in mind, I'd wait for the support of the masses before going ahead. This is based more on the fact that 'who am I to tell other Africans what's best for us'?

For me, the wonders of life mean nothing if other balck people are not there for it to be enjoyed with. Where you've have aided my understanding is defining that line between doing for self and doing for the masses. You have to want to do it for yourself first before it will ever have a chance of happening irrespective of the target audience.

Where I have always been discouraged by the existence of disunited pockets of united Africans, from my improved understanding I now see it as not so bad or at least the lesser of all the other evils i.e. better small pockets ofunited Africans than waiting for the backing of all Africans. If I parallel this with my stance on getting educated, then these small pockets are simply the next phase of evaluation.


I will also highlight the significance of nothing before the time. I've always been a means to and ends person. As such, the last ten or so years I've been grafting/sacrificing, I've made a conscious decision to relish the rewards (fatherhood being one of them) before taking the baton for the next phase.Knowing that there is a next phase is drive enough for me.I have nothing but respect for the likes of you and Toyin of Ligali who have chosen to make careers (not in the financial sense) of their love for Africans. If I ever had a doubt of embarking on the nextphase then your words arewhat I've been waiting to hear. niceone.gif

Makes me wonder what sort of paraodoxical dilemmas others have nbeen through.

@SDK

As far as scriptures go, extracts form your contribution by default are preserved in the Hall of Fame. blkscholar

No Sir it is this significant number among us who need what people like yourself have to offer the most.

I'm not talking about any grand projects here Sir - I'm just talking about bringing our lost sheep home.

The ones we fight here all the time - who unwittingly buy into white supremacist ideologies not out of malice but ignorance.

the young kid who takes gansta rap too literally

the proud young female graduate who begins to look down on her own kind because sheidentifies more strongly with the values of thosewho are not us.

It cannot be left to people to find things out for themselves external pressures and dare I say temptations are too powerful.

I guess all I'm saying is that we need to restore our collective consciousness. Things aren't the same today as they were when we were kids. Most of uslived with fathers, most of us had mums who weren't always at work.

Our parents awareness of culture was passed onto to us, part of that culture is one of resistance. We were and are an embattled people, back in the day the enemy didn't hide behind phoney political correctness we could see him clearly.

It didn't make sense for a black woman to talk about "no good black men" because we all knew we were all hated.

The same is no less true today but - some have forgotten that.

We need to remind them.

:-)