@ Bele

Marriage doesn't guarantee anything. Yeah so a woman can get pregnantwhile she is married to her husband but she might still end up a single mother, or is that ok because the child wasn't'technically' born out of wedlock? But no how can it be ok because the woman then falls into the single mother bracket, and you would probably have something to say about that as well. KMT

You talk as if being born out of wedlock is some kind of disease or disability "now we know they exist how do we treat them" like a bloodclart human being! So what u gonna do when ur gal says she's pregant but u ain't put ring pon her finger, u gonna tell her to have an abortion? And don't tell me shit about protection cos no contraception is 100% foolproof. Unless u tell me ur a chichiman ora virgin and don't plan to have sex until ur married u could find urself in that exact predicament, the same as many others have.

And yeahmy parents had me when they weren't married, but they will be celebrating their 20th anniversary this august. That is what matters to me and is more important than knowing or caring that I was a ******* child.

Bele wrote:

facetygal, Marriage doesn't guarantee anything. Wrong, marriage guarantees the children will not be b......, and will not have stigma. Yeah so a woman can get pregnantwhile she is married to her husband but she might still end up a single mother, or is that ok because the child wasn't'technically' born out of wedlock?Yes. The two are different. According tomanystudies done in the last decade. In 1960 nine out of every 1,000 married women in the United States divorced. The rate increased to more than 23 out of every 1,000 in 1980, MMP. First, I wouldn't wish any kid to end up insingle parent home, due to divorce, because the experience could be as hard as those born without marriage. On the other hand, in the 90's over 75% children born in the states wereborn out of wedlock. In fact the national marriage project reported that number of couples living together with b........ child/children has increased to 5 million, born 400,000 from the 60's. By the way, divorce rate has came down in that period.

But no how can it be ok because the woman then falls into the single mother bracket, and you would probably have something to say about that as well. KMT

You talk as if being born out of wedlock is some kind of disease or disability "now we know they exist how do we treat them" like a bloodclart human being! So what u gonna do when ur gal says she's pregant but u ain't put ring pon her finger, u gonna tell her to have an abortion? And don't tell me shit about protection cos no contraception is 100% foolproof. Unless u tell me ur a chichiman ora virgin and don't plan to have sex until ur married u could find urself in that exact predicament, the same as many others have.

I have never heard of such an animal, chichi man, most abhorrent sh*t that mankind has ever known to do. Don't e-mail me,familyis betweenone man/one woman. Really, I will make sure it doesn't happen again. this ain't about personal attack, there are nothing wrong with these kids/you, we just have to address how to lower it, nothing good about having b........ kids. They still b.

And yeahmy parents had me when they weren't married, but they will be celebrating their 20th anniversary this august. That is what matters to me and is more important than knowing or caring that I was a b**tard child.

Good for them, 20 yrs is a lot. Since you being one, how do you feel about you having one?

DSP,Let's look this without emotions.

I can see why many see marrying many wives as wicked practice. There are many reasons why having many wives (will not do personally)could beallowed on my books:Multiple marriages is useful in case the women isn't sterilized is limand can't give him the chance of being a father; the manhas the right to marry another wife, and leaving the choice tothe present wife if she wants to stay with the marriage or not. Also, if she is getting old/war time where there areshortage of men and so on. So the women have choice to say no if she doesn't see it right. One should never do this for physical pleasure, where in the out-of-wedlock case it's all about pysical pleasure.

Why U all having hard time understanding howawful this is? Marry the woman if you want to have kids/love her, andyouwomen muststop blaming us for your own making.

What blasted stigma are u talking about? There is no stigma because no oneeven usesthe terminology "******* child" or talks about being born out of wedlock. That might be the topic of conversation in america but it's not over here. You wanna know why? Because no one cares if the child was born out of wedlock, it's a blessing initself ifthe parents are still together before, during and after the birth. Yeah in an ideal world it would be nice to get married then have kids, but in this day and ageit doesn't work that way for numerous reasons.

What you should be more concerned about is that these kids are looked after properlyregardless if they have one parent or two, not whether mummy and daddy tied the knot before they layed down together. Get ur prioritiesin orderand stop quoting statistics that don't mean shit, because A it doesn't represent everyone, Bwe are no longer in the60s, 80s or 90s and C you don't know how accurate those statistics are to begin with.

I don't intend to get married until I'm 100% sure I'm doing the right thingas I only intend to experience it once. If it so happens that I get pregnant before I get married then so be it. Actually it wasnice to bea flower girl atmy parents wedding, and if my kids could be a part of my big day then that would be the best wedding gift I could have. You seebeing born out of wedlock wasn't an issue23yrs ago and it won't be an issue now,I don't care whatu have to say about it.

facetygal, You making this too hard for yourself. You're still clinging to the personal part of this. Take air, and stop you makingemotional connection to being human stigma. You don't have to care about the motives behind the thread, and this isn't about you personally, all black families need to address it on their own way. Save yourself from these people telling you it's ok to have illegitimate child.

There is also the veiled understanding and sympathy for the child,since he/she had anything to do with this. This puts ormakes light ofparentsdespicable actions, just because last few decades the westhas becamea wash with young women who have no respect for their own bodies. This is bigger then small sh*t that some of you want to admit.

Look how many threads about family problems, where no one wants to address some of the hardest and most controversial topics such as this? My advise to any one planning having kid without marriage is to engage self-examination and contemplation first and ask how right is that. We need to denounce it, without blaming the kids, but puting all the blame on their parents. We also should do this, without looking this into religious idealogy, without saying how wrong it is, without considering the consequences it may hold on those already born.

@ Bele

Buy the aftershave contradiction cos that is what u are doing. You start the thread asking people who is a ******* child and running it like it's a ****ing joke (see ur 2nd and 3rd post). You are singling out people that were born out of wedlock trying to say they have a problem, I don't have a problem bruvu do. Then in ur last few posts u wanna try say u haven't got a problem with ******* children but it's the parents that need to fix up just cos they don't wanna walk down the ****ing aisle. Walking down the aisle is not the important part, as I said before it's how the child is being cared for and whether the parents stay together which concerns most people. Thats how it works today but u can't see that cos u keep ur head stuck in a book of statistics.

@ All

I'll give u a scenario: I have a friend that is a bit younger than me, she has been with her boyfriend for about 8yrs now, been living together for ages. This girl just had a baby, due to certain problems this girl was lucky she even fell pregnant. Now is there a problem because my friend and her man aren't married? Or are you happy that in this day and agea young couple in their 20s have been together as long as they have, and still remain very much together after the birth of their son, regardless of whether they plan to get married or not?

It will be interesting to know ur views

I was born to a married couple but it doesnt affect anything, when my son was born I wasnt married, but now I am married to his mum. someone suggested that we could go and get his Birth certificate amended to show that we are married now, but that would be like trying to rewrite history as far as I see it. He was at the wedding and looked very smart too in his (suit), Since then we had a daughter as well...I dont think any of them are better than the other...its just our little family history and I aint ashamed of it at all...The word ******* now just means M/F or another curse word...no-one can honestly still live in that time warp surely???

Bele can and is!

Well I don't see why I should feel Isome edge over children born out of wedlock simply because my parents were marriedbefore I was born (my dadhad beenmarried to his wife for 10 years and my motherhad been married toher husband for 8). That was just my good fortune I guess.

But seriously folks, I have always been against the stigmatisation and derogatory references levelled at children born out of wedlock. Children have no say in who they are born to and as DrunkMonkey says it is destructive to brand the children in that way.

I am all for promoting the institution of marriage and holding it up as the 'ideal' institution for conceiving and raising children, but the children should not made to feel inadequate for the lack of such a union in their conception. Lambast the parents, if you must, but not the children.

Respect

Is living together and having children out of wedlock really a European thing??????

Back in the 50s 60s and even 70s white people in this country couldnt just shack up together and "live in sin", they would have been shunned.