Timeline wrote:

I especially like how you base your ideas of cultural and social norms on artificial situations like prison, and how you use this to attack the readers presumed bias on theassumption thatthey all take thebible literally...
That's excellent thinking and makes complete sense.

Timeline

wow you do have a massively huge opinion about your point of view..

well since you asked,no I was not taught that sex was purely for reproduction and I don't know many folks raised like you,so implying I might have been raised under a rock because we had very different teachings growing up is not only juvenile its immature beyond words especially in a so called adult forum..



As for simplifying the rest of you post,maybe its because it actually is a very simply matter whichyou have chosen toblow out of all proportion just to make yourself heard,you're all over the place,

Is it because I challenged your opinion you sunk to assuming I didn't read it,sorry dear,I did and I stand by my opinions..

I am a man of little words so I will make it brief.


For the record that is not exactly true. Those points mentioned, are few and between.........I have never met anon-westernwhose greatest need was onlysex and no kids.Those with the same sex tendenciesare refering to westerners, who have lost their sex drive, having kids, and became their cause to say,YOU SEEhaving sex in orderto have kids ain't that important to all...........

Not all men inprison engage the same......what about those not in prison that still engage the same, when 60% of thehumans they see in the streets are female? Oh wait, they don't count!!!

majority of women do have orgasmed, if not they need a player........


........reproduction is not the primary human value of sex.

Thats got to beduhhhhhh!!! one sided statement. May be humans in the western nations..........

From now on,starting with "WE" onanot so WEnot allowed...........

Timeline: LMAO….typically like your cohort Ruesengo, you’ve taken an idea and then extended it..... on your own flawed logic and back-to-front thinking…. amazingly you then have the gall to berate and insult the intelligence of others for not understanding your nonsense.. You’re a joker…



Forum: The basic premise of Timeline’s argument are theses: the ‘nature of sex’, the argument that sex is primarily for pleasure, for which she cites examples of behaviours of men 7 women when in goal. She then touches on contraception and minority cultures where some women are mutilated….



In rebuttal I argue against …timelines opening argument that states: we have accepted that sex is primarily for reproduction. We conveniently rename and cover up possible evidence that sex is indeed much more complex than the mere outcome of reproduction.



Timelines thoughts on this issue is completely illogical….Sex is primarily for reproduction, the primary function of sex is NOT for pleasure…Why do I say that..well because the word primary means what exactly? It means the following;

1. First or highest in rank, quality, or importance; principal.
2. Being or standing first in a list, series, or sequence.
3. Occurring first in time or sequence; earliest.
4. Being or existing as the first or earliest of a kind; primitive.

The highest rank function of sex is impregnate the female of our species with sperm, for the purpose of what? Well isn’t it to procreate, to have children? I accept that sex can also be pleasurable but the fact remains that the feeling of pleasure does not rank higher in the order of importance over reproducing…



Or to put it another way…is the primary purpose of eating for ‘pleasure’ or to ‘sustain and maintain life’? What Timeline is attempting to do is to stand logic completely on its head, what would happen forexample ifwe decided NOT to eat, because it was unpleasurable? Is the ‘nature’ of consuming food primarily for sustaining life or is it for pleasure..



Further Timeline then attempts to back up her illogical argument, by citing the behaviours of men & women in prison…Now I’m sure I could not have been the only person to have spotted the glaring omissions here…Like:



The people in prison are NOT representative of general society; theyare in fact only representative of a narrow group of people within a certain socio economic group.. She also omits that people usually in prison are typically dysfunctional and emotionally damaged human beings, sent to prison forpunishment and theprotection of others.



But even if I discarded this line of thought and accepted Timelines argument, couldn’t her logic then be applied to paedophiles in prisons, and the ‘need’ of these men to crave and actively seek material to feed this depravity… Is this a ‘pleasure’ reaction or a reaction based on individual depravity? Is this type of behaviour NATURAL..is it a PRIMARY function for us to want to sex children?



Sorry Timeline, nice try but you really will need to develop a better line of argument than the one you just presented…As another Villager also accurately points out. Prison’s are artificial environments that forces together the criminally convicted.. a point youcarefully avoided because it did not suit your argument…



The facts are, if shehad BOTHERED to researchher thoughts properly, is that the concept of having sex for pleasure..is relatively new…arising from the development of the male/female contraceptive in the 60’s onwards… as is the concept of marrying for the purpose of love, in the UK before the introduction of the welfare state in 1945, women married for financial security and NOT for the emotional attachments we call love today…



Finallyher argument that same sex relationships within the prison system, is about sexual gratification and not about ‘power’ & ’control’ is so stupid as to defy belief…and btw I can say that confidentlyhaving WORKED within similar conditions in the youth justice system.. I also have extensive experience of segregated wards in the mental health system…and I have to confess I saw and heard no evidence of either men or women indulging in the behaviours you appear to feel is ‘primary’ …so btw what experience or evidence do you have to back up your claims?

@Timeline. I have never come across any of your previous posts on this subject but think the title of the thread is a very good one as the whole issue around sex is something I have long thought about and particulary the effects of westernisation and Europeanisation on us both males and females.

I think you have made the same error from the outset by adopting a Western model and set of assumptions. The dichotomy between sex for enjoyment and reproduction is not one which exists in most African cultures I have studied anthropologically.

These are in fact western dichotomies and foolish one at that, like so much of their attitudes to sex infantile. It is also ironic that westerners and feminists in particular as soon as you say polygamy they think men using excusing to sex more than one woman. That is western attitudes for you and not that of Africans that we know.

I think Africans like other groups of people had a very advanced understanding of sex and its importance to healthy human behaviour and development. So they were big on sex and being old people developed much wisdom around it.

The difference between say tribal African societies and western contemporary dominant or media culture is that the former was highly regulated and institutionalised. So sex was not solely for reproduction even though that is a biological and group requisite for surviving, and could take many forms purely for enjoyment, but that was within institutions of marriage or other culturally acccepted institutions.

Study whole regions of Africa like Malinovsky classic studies of East African tribes or his student Kenyatta and the practice what was called Nyeko or something similar in Gikiyu where young men and women of age were allowed to have a whole heap of sexual intimacies, but it was clearly prohibited for sexual penetration to go on. Because that leads to pregnancy and serious tribal and clan complications and could end up with some of the family trees we have here due to baby mother or father dramas.

That was common throught West, South and East Africa. Muslim societies is a different thing. Masturbation was promoted in most tribal societies amongst males and females including mutual masturbation and stuff but never intercourse.

Moreover in most societies males and females were expected to please their partners and were taught before marriage by elders or their parents the tricks of the trade because it was a divorce and shaming offence. In fact I have read some hilliarious true cases from within tribes when wives have complained that their man is not doing the business and tribal elders both male and female are called and instruct them to show them their moves while they comment, which always cracks me up. Talk about performance pressure.

So Africans have a very very civilised and mature attitude to sex and always did have but it was highly ritualised and you could not go around sexing who you like or think anything goes or was up for grabs. Even how girls went around letting their future boyfirends their interest and then how far they could go was all highly ritualised. Which gave women a lot of power in those interactions.



I also think when you mentioned ancient Greece that as the brother previously said you are making an incorrect analysis. Not only that you are doing what I call looking at antiquity or other cultures with Calafornian sunglasses on. Because what they were doing or how their homsexuality manifested and was permitted bears absolutely no relationship to contemporary western gay culture.



I have read some queer theory and it was an eye opener in terms of the different sets of homosexuals and their sexual practices and rituals and the names and buzz terms they have for their sexual antics or techniques, almost to a point of science which has nothing to do what soever with ancient societies and particularly Greece.

Homosexuality in Greece was actually limited to very small numbers of the elite and usually older establshed men. They were allowed as part of an institution act as mentors for want of a better word and tutors of younger men. This would last until they were adult men and often as would happen they would write love poems and all sorts and develop feelings and stuff but it was not about sex or had a sexual focus which is what contemporary sexuality is about. I am not saying sexual relations between some of these patrons etc did not go on, but that was not the primary purpose for that institution.

In fact many African tribes had similar institutions and they definitely were not about sex. You tell an ancient Greek about fisting or other practices which is the rage in particular gay circles and he would not have a clue what you were talking about and would probably feel sick once he did.

I am not defending ancient Greek homosexuality. Just saying you cannot look at it with LA glasses on. African American (sorry Caribbean)lesbian Audrey Lourde did this writting some big essay on African woman to woman marriages and end up embarrasing herself. Same mistake these institutions had nothing to do with sex. But shows you how wise and old Africans are. Older women from usually higher classs who wanted children and could not bear them were allowed to marry. All parties had the legal status accorded to them. The wife however was allowed to choose her lover, who would pregnate her but the father's rights were transfered to the female husband.

Oh they kept their lovers as women were allowed to do in many African societies. For example old men marrying young girls to have children with but obviously could not satisfy them sexually were allowed to have lovers. But again everything was done within an instituitonal frame work and regulated by custom. Nothing in common with western sexual morality where basically there is little normative regulation and it is down to the consenting parties or one to do as they will regardless of the consequences to others as it is not regulated by anything beyond the individual.



So I feel this is based on white values. By the way that is one of the reasons whites when they came into contact with us claimed we were sexually promiscous because our sexual culture is different than their repressive one.



FB

Timeline

it would be sooo easy to resort to your cheap shots and insults,but you're known for this kind of come-backs here,so I wish I could say I'm shocked,for peace sake I'll break down your whole text down..



Timeline wrote:

@Menzzingos. You made a great point that struck me last night but I was too tired and think I had said enough. You actually make my point about the loss of identity of sooo sooo many African people who confuse western and white culture with the universal norm. And it always makes me shake my head when I hear women of a particular leaning talk about black women and I have to say what black women are you talking to?

You made the key point that orgasims have never ever been the be all and end all of sexual and emotional satisfaction or gratification. It became so with the discovery of the female clitorous by white feminists in effect in the 70s. In fact the famous Kinsey surveys showed the majority of women had enjoybable sex without orgasim as it was never the key performance indicator which western women or some now make it.

I know plenty sexually experience and intelligent women who said they were not having orgasims on a regular basis but it was no major issue. So it shows how so many are now lost and cannot see or distinguish blacks from whites or when they look in the mirror they are unsure about what looks back at them.

I am not promoting by the way that we should not consider new information but to start an argument and use that as one of your key premises or sub premises is very dubious.

FBconfused3

Timeline:

The brothas on lockdown wanted me to let u know that they are very upset with ur propagating the notion thateveryone who goes to prison engages in homo activity.

They said that it certainly goes on, but only between those who already had such proclivities when they went in, and that ur argument that such activities inevitably result whenever men are confined for long periods without the opposite sex is complete crap.

They wanted me to tell u that if u like pussy, go for it, just stop trying to justify it or get others to accept it with ur ridiculous arguments.