Do you agree that these Black Women are 'sellouts'..? - Page 5

Abstract · (#101 (**permalink**))

Le Moor wrote:

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AmeriJamCan wrote:

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Le Moor,

Let me say that you can add me to the list of women you named. I am a very proud Black female, but I am sick and tired of lazy, useless Black men trying hard to blame Black women for their miserable lives. All of these women are heroines in their own way, and they are not going to be demonized by someone like you.

If Black men hadn't sold their own in Africa, then continued to abuse Black women throughout the Diaspora by walking out on pregnant women and engaging in destructive behavior, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

It's ironic that Black women who marry are less healthy than other married women. But given your ramblings I can figure it out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102300770.html

I thank God that Jamaicans have finally elected a female prime minister, ditto for Liberia. Black women are far more educated and financially successful than Black men, not because of racism, but because we take advantage of opportunities offered. That's why Black women will continue to succeed, while Black men will continue to sink into their mire of "I'm a victim - poor me".

Black men - keep trying to blame Black women for your problems. We'll just see how far that will get you.

I'm married to a Black man, but to be honest, as long as you are happy, you should marry anyone you want regardless of race. I see many of my Black female friends getting involved in interracial relationships, and as long as they are happy, that's alright with me.

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@ Backatya:history of spats are now all firmly in the past, you are now prime candidate for best man at my wedding.

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You mentioned that we fail to "understand that such a debate on a reasonable and balanced level is TOTALLY impossible to achieve."

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Being the eternal optomist i beg to differ, however if you allow posts such as this pile of sh*te from Amerijancan without moderating then it will most certainly be impossible to achieve. In fact imagine if i had written the equivelent about black women. I mean look at the reaction recieved without me even putting pen to paper, so to speak. I have highlighted the areas in red which i believe contravene the ethos of the site laid down in this thread ironicallyby Kunjufu earlier, and are also if anything highlyprovocative andinsulting to black men generally. I cannont believe in fact that up until now except for Mansamusa, they have gone unchallenged. Are me and Mansamusa the only real men left on this site- lol.

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@ Mansamusa and Soulstar (again) Thanks for your attempts in knocking some sense into this fool of a gal surrounding my position on this article, however most extremists cannont be reasoned with.

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I've read this thread with pointed interest, but I realise that only 'men' that are bravehearts or fools would contribute to this LOSE - LOSE thread.

Why LOSE - LOSE?
Well any comment you can make about this thread is going to be taken very personally, and most people won't even bother to read your full comment. As soon as they see you've said "black" "sellout" and "women" in the same sentence -thats it you're done. I think we all know what a serious and even taboo subject this really is.

So as i'm not foolish or brave enough, this is the only contribution you get from me.

@ Le moor. I respect your efforts to try to break taboos- good luck wit dat LOL.

Gmahogany · (#102 (**permalink**))

I don't think that the Black women on this Board have a problem with having a discussion about female sell-outs. I think that this particular "article" inspired the reaction it did, because it is obviously one sided and biased. It has an insulting, divisive tone,and a clearly anti feminist agenda,probable anti Black woman agenda(considering the source). Beyond that, the person/persons who wrote it are really "reaching" on several of the selections. It mixes in personal attacks, accusations of drugs and alcoholism, etc, with so called facts. Let's not act like this was some reasoned, objective, analysis of Black female sellout-ism. It was not...it was basically an emotion based,highly subjective, b**chfit,lol.

Rebel Lion 06 · (#103 (**permalink**))

I can see where Moore is coming from.

The attack on Muslem women is going on right now. I respect the Muslems for the way that they look after their women, some go too far with the enforcement of Islam for my western mind to understand butits their way and should be left to them.There was a program onthe BBc the other day where they gave space to a Muslem girl who had obviously been to thewest and has become an artist... she makes noise about the oppression of women in Arab countries and her video was explicit in the sence that it was about taking off the Hijab and wearing what they wanted, in her case a bikini and short skirt dancing with guys galore.... on BBC.... all under the pretence of female liberation. It wasa blatant attack onMuslem culture and even though my Asian friend complains aboutdivided swimming pools and not being able to wear certain clothing inPakistaneven though its hot, or not wanting to wear a Hijab (apologies if I've got the name wrong) I can see the benifits of it.

Children that go to sexually divided schools do better in general. For example.

Other similar attacks I've seen featured on National Geographic. A european guy that seems to like sitting with tribes around the world sat with an Ethiopian group, noted that they put disks in their lips and said that its to ward off slave traders (making it out as though its a thing of the past when its still going on) he approached a young girl who didn't want to have her lips peirced and gave her air time to complain about it pressing her with questions even though you could see that she didn't want to talk about it. It goes on constantly in the west in the form of Trishas and other women that are happy to spend god knows how much on perms and wigs.

They make our culture taboo to bring us into their way of things draw from it what they want and white wash it into oblivion. Culture killers. Vampires in every sence of the word.

I don't really care too much, in my opinion if you're living in the West you're stuck with their agenda, pointless to moan when you're on the enemies turf... of if you moan at least make it heard and not just sit and take it. (petitions etc)

If there was a cultural revolution where women stopped wearing wigs and perms, it would spread a wave of consiousness around the world that would benifit and uplift us all. Its not sexist in any way... I think what Moore and other guys on here are saying is that women don't seem to realize what power they have over us men. If us men took to praising our women with their hair all nappy, minus the make up it would then force us ignorant fools to change our game but for now we're left praising the westernized black woman, a black woman that wants what the white woman wants... dimaonds from sierra leone and a lack in confidence fixed with make up and talks about celebrity life.

I'd stand for a black womans cultural revolution I really would. From the understanding that us men are too egotistic and need putting in place by women who understand themselves not ones that don't. Erica Badu is the revolution!

REALIZE YOURSELVES SISTERS! Is the message can see Le Moore putting out,its not an attack at all I haven't really had the time to read it all but so far I haven't seen a critical breakdown of his veiw.

Feel free to PM me YJG

Le Moor · (#104 (**permalink**))

Michelle33 wrote:

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Thanks for your attempts in knocking some sense into this fool of a gal surrounding my position on this article, however most extremists cannont be reasoned with.

Le Moor, in order to get respect you need to give it. Your comment above is disrespectful to women. You might say I'm being over sensitive and that it is just a figure of speech but where did the figure of speech come from? All the women that have been beaten by their men maybe? I thought we were all adults here. You need to come better than this. Did you know that with your aggressive tone you come across like an extremist yourself?

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Michelle i know you're still seething from what i said to you earlier, but a, your post was idiotichence the response was deserved and b, you now need to grow up and move on.

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Please try to concentrate on the bloodclaart topic and leave me alone, you're seriously irritating.

Lucas... · (#105 (**permalink**))

mmm
i could....
...
but i wont...
mmm
..interesting thread... though

Kunjufu · (#106 (**permalink**))

Mansamusa: Ok in response to your last post I’m once again going to address each point made in order…

I think there is a big difference in an African who proposes to make money from a product called Ghettoploy in the 21[suP]st[/suP] century and a person making money from a hair straightening product derived of its time in the 19[suP]th[/suP] century.. That for me is not a like for like comparison. Clearly in if an African knowing all the history of our struggle to date seeks to make money of the BACK of stereotyping our culture that to me is far worse than somebody two hundred years earlier who live in a DIFFERENT climate where it is obvious to all but the blind that a lot of derogatory things were acceptable… BECAUSE people clearly did not know better..so lets not get this bit twisted ok..
You then linked my point of C J walker not being a politician to Frank the plank Bruno..sorry this again is where you’re analysis is clearly confused and ignorant… Frank Bruno wasn’t called a sell out just because of his behaviour on TV… If you recall this idiot also joined the Conservative party, and then went further he campaigned for Margret Thatcher…in Brentwood on behalf of Ex right wing judge Pickles.. so if we are comparinmg like for like where is it said that CJ walker behaved like that?
You then mentioned Alice Walker….that is a tough one..is she a ‘sell out’ I can’t say..I wasn’t defending her or her works…and without knowing her reasoning for writing for example the ‘colour Purple’ it would be difficult hand on heart to say she was a sell out.. I know however her works did make me feel very uncomfortable…but that was mainly because I knew she had a valid point, not because I thought she was lying.
On the issue of retrospective judgements.. I did not mean that our ancestors should not be judged or critique..I said that…what I’m saying clearly is that if we do critique the works of other people from the past, some weight must be given to the climate of the day, and to the available knowledge of that period… I don’t think the author took this small but significant point into account…
For clarities sake…I would not say that the standard in the past was ‘poor’ compared today.. What I’m saying was that it was different, and clearly limited by the overt racism of the day…I say we hail our ancestors not because who they were necessarily. But because of what they achieved in extremely difficult times..
On the question sellouts past and present..that is a difficult question…I would however state in response that issues like this are cultural and time specific…I don’t think it’s a matter of better or worse. Poor or rich.. for me it’s a matter of each case taken on its merit..

ChubbiChix · (#107 (**permalink**))

Well, based on the evidence, most of the women are sell outs because to me if you marrying white men or even playing stereotypical roles opposite white men then you have sold out. I don't know if everything in this post is 100% true but made some real valid points like I never knew Alice walker was married to a white men and if the shoe was on the other foot, sister would be seething. The color purple was a good movie though because it wasen't just about man hating because there were other decent brothers other then the central evil figure Mr. I also can't say that Hailey berry real had sex because its hollywood, Jasons lyric and others are just as intense regardless of gossip so I can't use that to judge her relationships as crazy as they are.

Interesting comments about Madam CJ walker and her daughter because it was a great acomplishment to be the first black woman millionaire but she did capitalize off of sisters hating themselves and her daughter was worst.

Soulstarr · (#108 (**permalink**))

ChubbiChix wrote:

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I also can't say that Hailey berry real had sex because its hollywood,

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this is true, but aint halle goin out with some european model right now?

Gmahogany · (#109 (**permalink**))

Kunjufu wrote:

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Mansamusa: Ok in response to your last post I’m once again going to address each point made in order…

I think there is a big difference in an African who proposes to make money from a product called Ghettoploy in the 21[suP]st[/suP] century and a person making money from a hair straightening product derived of its time in the 19[suP]th[/suP] century.. That for me is not a like for like comparison. Clearly in if an African knowing all the history of our struggle to date seeks to make money of the BACK of stereotyping our culture that to me is far worse than somebody two hundred years earlier who live in a DIFFERENT climate where it is obvious to all but the blind that a lot of derogatory things were acceptable… BECAUSE people clearly did not know better..so lets not get this bit twisted ok..
You then linked my point of C J walker not being a politician to Frank the plank Bruno..sorry this again is where you’re analysis is clearly confused and ignorant… Frank Bruno wasn’t called a sell out just because of his behaviour on TV… If you recall this idiot also joined the Conservative party, and then went further he campaigned for Margret Thatcher…in Brentwood on behalf of Ex right wing judge Pickles.. so if we are comparinmg like for like where is it said that CJ walker behaved like that?
You then mentioned Alice Walker….that is a tough one..is she a ‘sell out’ I can’t say..I wasn’t defending her or her works…and without knowing her reasoning for writing for example the ‘colour Purple’ it would be difficult hand on heart to say she was a sell out.. I know however her works did make me feel very uncomfortable…but that was mainly because I knew she had a valid point, not because I thought she was lying.
On the issue of retrospective judgements.. I did not mean that our ancestors should not be judged or critique..I said that…what I’m saying clearly is that if we do critique the works of other people from the past, some weight must be given to the climate of the day, and to the available knowledge of that period… I don’t think the author took this small but significant point into account…
For clarities sake…I would not say that the standard in the past was ‘poor’ compared today.. What I’m saying was that it was different, and clearly limited by the overt racism of the day…I say we hail our ancestors not because who they were necessarily. But because of what they achieved in extremely difficult times..
On the question sellouts past and present..that is a difficult question…I would however state in response that issues like this are cultural and time specific…I don’t think it’s a matter of better or worse. Poor or rich.. for me it’s a matter of each case taken on its merit..

I totally agree. I think we have to be careful not to become to "trigger happy" with this whole sell-out thing. I'm not quick to call anyone a sell-out, I'm just really dogmatic about it once I conclude someone really IS a sell-out. I don't even think that dating or marrying a white person AUTOMATICALLY makes one a sell-out. I do think it warrants watching that person's actions more closely, and taking what they say with a grain of salt, but it's not automatic. I'm not gonna fall over with a heart attack if they do turn out to be a sell out, lol, but I take it on a case by case basis.

There are Black people who are married to white people, who I don't think are sell-outs, because they still speak out and fight hard on issues that affect us, Alfre Woodard is one who comes to mind. She was very outspoken on the Tookie Williams thing,(though I happened to disagree with her), and has been so, on a number of issues that concern the Black community, and Black men in particular.

The reason there is a perceived correlation between dating/marrying white and selloutism is because in many instances, the Black person involved is actively trying to get away from their Blackness or has issues with it, in the first place. Plus, some of them(usually Black men), went/go out out of their way to run down Black women as an excuse for dealing with white women, or EXCLUSIVELY date white women(Quincy Jones, for example), THAT is what makes them a possible sellout, not the fact that they fell in love withA white woman, in my mind. Most of the Black women that can be accused of marrying a white man, have ALSO had long relationships/marriages with Black men, including: Alice Walker(after her marriage to the white man), Whoopi Goldberg, Dianne Carroll, Diana Ross, Tina Turner.

I think that we have enough clear cut cases of Black folks who are openly antithetical to our interests, and who are self avowed PROUD sellouts like Clarence Thomas, OJ Simpson, to not have to manufacture or trump up sell-out accusations against folks who lived a hundred years ago, or for making bad career choices or writing crappy books,lol. We haven't even dealt with the Negroes that we can ALL agree are sellouts...let's handle that business before we get all ambitious.

Gmahogany · (#110 (**permalink**))

One more thing, on Terri McMillan being on this list. It's really hilarious to me that she's being mentioned on the same list with Alice Walker as being part of some grand Black feminist/CIA conspiracy. I remember seeing an interview with Terri where she talked about the fact that she was getting some kind ofBlack women's literary award,and how Alice Walker and Toni Morrison made it clear that they had no love for her or her writing. Suggesting that Terri McMillan and Alice Walker are of the same ilk,or have the same agenda, is about as retarded and ridiculous as Bush trying to say that Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein have the same agenda. A rudimentary study/understanding of either situation would tell you that there would more likely be conflict and contempt, than a meeting of minds and cooperation.