We have lost another son! - Page 2

Kunjufu · (#26 (**permalink**))

Vezz: just to clarify I am for dealing with our own and concentrating on the Issues within our community...however I suppose the point I'm making is that its a wider issue that needs a wider solution than has been offered thus far....
But i totally agree with you BOYCOTT, BOYCOTT BOYCOTT....

Lokk we were ready to boycott..one and two collie man shop for the alleged rape of one our own, yet where is the anger for people condoning the killing our culture on the alter of 'respect'.....

Personally I don't allow certain artist or tunes in my house....the music channels in my house are locked and will remain locked until they reach the age of consent, I personally correct and chastise my children if they talk 'street' in my presence..especially whern they punctuate every sentence witn a 'yea', or 'you know that?????' and I certainly won't be bullied into buying so called designer gear so that they can 'fit in'...

I certainly remind my girls that they go to school to learn, not to be in any fashion parade and they had better not let me catch them forming thev arse on the bus...because i will personally make them spell hellick backwards if i do...some people say i'm harsh...I think you have to parent with tough love in these conditions anything less is asking for trouble..

Vezz. · (#27 (**permalink**))

I'm all for Tough Love, but I honestly don't think it'll work with the youth of today, hence my exasperation.

My daughter watched MTV Base (granted, at the time it wasn't that bad), but she's turned out great and is 20 years old, childless, with steady boyfriend of 3 years (no, they do not fornicate under my roof!), and at university.

Yet I know of a girl my Nan practically helped raise who had a baby at 15....and she went to a strict Catholic school, and borne of strict Catholic parents!

My point is, how we 35-45 year olds were raised is no longer relevant. Children nowadays are aware of their "rights", and are not afraid to exercise them. I've got a 7 year old who gives me attitude if I tell him off, and if I beat him I'm aware he could go to school and let it slip, thus risking him being taken from me. He doesn't get this attitude from home, and I make sure he doesn't watch the music channels. However I noticed a distinct shift when he watched Jetix (now banned) and a programme called "Horrid Henry" I watched this with him and the attitude was appalling. Needless to say it's now banned.

I'm afraid our kids are subject to such outside influences that no matter how we try, we cannot cocoon them and some of the hedonism will get through. However, I'd like to know why it affects some kids more than others?

Kunjufu · (#28 (**permalink**))

Vezz: i hear you but you know i couldn't disagree with you more....the ways we had growing up has never been more important.....and I think on reflection it is the lost of our traditions in the UK that is in part a cause for some of the problems today.....
Yes i agree with you that there are STRONG external factors that are definately strong on this issue, but honestly if we want children to respect the family institution then we have to live it like our parents did....

Therefore imo, we need to get back to routinely sitting around the table not just on big occassions, but every sunday and if possible during the week day..with the TV switched off and everyone talking and being reminded of table eittiquette...

To focus the children on the importance of education, not by just ramming down their throat 24/7..but by setting an example a few years back when i graduated as part of my profession..I made the point of taking ALL my family to the ceremony..not because I wanted that..but to SHOW my girls an example of their father studying and being rewarded for the study and giving them something to aspire to...

It was the same reason why i made a big thing about beinmg married, to set an example for my girls about relationship and the framework to which it should happen... Lots of people kept asking why is marriage so important, why bother..why not just live together....and one of my replies Vezz that its important for the children.. One of my earliest momeries is of my uncle getting married..and the celebration and tradition that came with it... I feel if you want children to respect relationships then we must show them....

My children used to holiday as a family group every year from when they were small, this taught them family went beyond blood relations and they learnt the proper form of respect on how to address adults from that experience....they also know what i expect of them at all times in term of behaviour and decorum..

Most importantly and i only learnt this with my second child, child need to see the world from young...My children have been everywhere with us...I am hoping that because of this they will aspire to want more than getting pregnant and running for a council flat.... My eldest still reminds me that I repeatedly told that i do not raise my children to aspire to benefits or second best....I never did, they never saw me begging anyone for anything..if i needed it i worked in whatever job that paid me money...and i mean anything... if we don't instill the work ethic then why would children aspire to it...

My point in short that there is nothing wrong with what we were taught 35/45 years ago..what is wrong in some ways is that our generation discarded too much too quickly in favour of the new modernity.. and in some ways we are paying the price for that short sightedness..

That is why I don't agree with intergration, because its assimilation of the worse kind, I do not buy into all this fitting in business or calling ourselves BRITISH sod that....we need to remember who and what we are......because the end result is exactly what we are seeing now....confusion on a grand scale... You can see clear examples from the Asians, Africans from the continent.and others .as each new generation comes along forgetting their traditions the problems escalates....

i think its time we return to some of the old ways..personally..

Prince Hakeem · (#29 (**permalink**))

Kunjufu wrote:

Quote:

Vezz: i hear you but you know i couldn't disagree with you more....the ways we had growing up has never been more important.....and I think on reflection it is the lost of our traditions in the UK that is in part a cause for some of the problems today.....
Yes i agree with you that there are STRONG external factors that are definately strong on this issue, but honestly if we want children to respect the family institution then we have to live it like our parents did....

Therefore imo, we need to get back to routinely sitting around the table not just on big occassions, but every sunday and if possible during the week day..with the TV switched off and everyone talking and being reminded of table eittiquette...

To focus the children on the importance of education, not by just ramming down their throat 24/7..but by setting an example a few years back when i graduated as part of my profession..I made the point of taking ALL my family to the ceremony..not because I wanted that..but to SHOW my girls an example of their father studying and being rewarded for the study and giving them something to aspire to...

It was the same reason why i made a big thing about beinmg married, to set an example for my girls about relationship and the framework to which it should happen... Lots of people kept asking why is marriage so important, why bother..why not just live together....and one of my replies Vezz that its important for the children.. One of my earliest momeries is of my uncle getting married..and the celebration and tradition that came with it... I feel if you want children to respect relationships then we must show them....

My children used to holiday as a family group every year from when they were small, this taught them family went beyond blood relations and they learnt the proper form of respect on how to address adults from that experience....they also know what i expect of them at all times in term of behaviour and decorum..

Most importantly and i only learnt this with my second child, child need to see the world from young...My children have been everywhere with us...I am hoping that because of this they will aspire to want more than getting pregnant and running for a council flat.... My eldest still reminds me that I repeatedly told that i do not raise my children to aspire to benefits or second best....I never did, they never saw me begging anyone for anything..if i needed it i worked in whatever job that paid me money...and i mean anything... if we don't instill the work ethic then why would children aspire to it...

My point in short that there is nothing wrong with what we were taught 35/45 years ago..what is wrong in some ways is that our generation discarded too much too quickly in favour of the new modernity.. and in some ways we are paying the price for that short sightedness..

That is why I don't agree with intergration, because its assimilation of the worse kind, I do not buy into all this fitting in business or calling ourselves BRITISH sod that....we need to remember who and what we are......because the end result is exactly what we are seeing now....confusion on a grand scale... You can see clear examples from the Asians, Africans from the continent.and others .as each new generation comes along forgetting their traditions the problems escalates....

i think its time we return to some of the old ways..personally..

This is a very, very excellent post. blkclapblkclapblkclapblkclap

Vezz. · (#30 (**permalink**))

K, I hear you loud and clear. However, with all due respect, your girls are a lot easier to raise than boys.

It depends on the child as to which way they'll turn. We both know of peers our age who were beaten on a regular basis and who turned to crime and are probably dead (my cousin is a prime example - he was stabbed to death in Norwood 2 years ago), and children whose parents let them do as they pleased who are now Captains of Industry.

I honestly think the media and our obsession over here with American rappers has a lot to do with it. We never had such easy access to the world as our children do, and we never had 18+ video games (Space Invaders anyone?). I would say it's a natural progression, but why is our youth suffering so much for it?

I also think the crap they put into our food has a bearing, but I honestly don't think instilling a sense of pride in our youth is enough. If it were, Dwaine would still be alive today......

Kunjufu · (#31 (**permalink**))

Vezz. wrote:

Quote:

K, I hear you loud and clear. However, with all due respect, your girls are a lot easier to raise than boys.

It depends on the child as to which way they'll turn. We both know of peers our age who were beaten on a regular basis and who turned to crime and are probably dead (my cousin is a prime example - he was stabbed to death in Norwood 2 years ago), and children whose parents let them do as they pleased who are now Captains of Industry.

I honestly think the media and our obsession over here with American rappers has a lot to do with it. We never had such easy access to the world as our children do, and we never had 18+ video games (Space Invaders anyone?). I would say it's a natural progression, but why is our youth suffering so much for it?

I also think the crap they put into our food has a bearing, but I honestly don't think instilling a sense of pride in our youth is enough. If it were, Dwaine would still be alive today......

[line]
Vezz: Hmmm yes i have heard this arguement before regarding boys and girls, and i do have some sympathy for that point, however Vezz...I would point out that regardless of gender, BLACK children pay an heavier penalty for their mistakes than their white or Asian peers....

On that point my fear as a father of girls is same as the parents of boys, that they will settle for second best, that they will see sex and sexuality as a currency to form attachements and to make money, or worse that they will follow some fool fool bwoy into crime...

In any case i think it is all relative because the anxieties you have as the mother of a son I have as the father of daughters, the problem is the same..what is different is the choice of self destruction...whether it is quick death at the point of a knife or a slow death at the end of a fist of an abusive partner.. or at the end of a needle from drug misuse..the end result is the same ....

Vezz...I can tell you tha with my youngest, i had to take drastic action, because Ex had let her run of rails...had i NOT taken her from her mother at 5, she would have been expelled from primary school it was that bad......when I transferred her to a school near me, i can tell you that there was not a day that went by, where i didn'ty have to go to that school about sonmething she had done...this went on for almost two years... Trust me when i tell you I struggled with that child, we turned it around eventually...by putting in STRICT routines, strict punishments for even the smallest infraction... I made sure that i sent her to a school with strong bounderies, and then made sure that the teacher kept me informed of ANY misbehaviour and any slacking from her education... but more importantly we took her swimming and on all the other family actibvities that i discussed before and it has worked, she has turned around 360o

I have just come back from her school today, and all the issue she used to have are not the dominant feature of my trips to her school, if you had met her you vezz you would know the transformation... for me its about the long game.

My eldest daughter around the age of 18 got into the madness and was heading for a big fall. In order to drive home her behaviour I had to virtually disown her and cut her off clean.... This was a huge risk, a huige risk and not one i would advocate..but i was at the point that if i don't draw a line in the sand now..then she will be gone forever..... at one point she nearly got herself kill through this madness..she was bloody lucky..

however luckily for me she valued the love of her father more than the badness and she turned her back on it... My point Vezz, is that it might appear that girls are easier, but they are not...it just appears that way.. in my view raising children in this country is getting harder and harder..i pity anyone with young children now....because unless things change they are going to piss!!!

Vezz. · (#32 (**permalink**))

K,

Much love and respect for turning your girls around. You sure had some worries there!

Of course losing a child is awful, but the fact is our Black boys are marked and disenfranchised from a very young age, hence the reason why they're killing each other.

My eldest son seems to be settling down at school, but I had to take him out of the one he was in because he started developing a "street" attitude. He still has attitude, but not as bad as 6 months ago. He's the one I really worry about. I went through the school procedures, where they tested him for ADHD/Asperger's etc, when I knew full well he didn't have any of these things. I did it to ensure he wasn't expelled, as we all know how easy it is for them to do so. And all this when he's NOT exposed to rap music etc.

You can educate your kids as much as you can, but peer pressure is a bugger.

Abstract · (#33 (**permalink**))

Sorry to interrupt this 'Parents Debating Society', but do you really expect us to believe that its sheer pot luck if your child turns into a killer/delinquent/drug abuser/gang member?

Get the f- outta here.

Kunjufu · (#34 (**permalink**))

stick-upKid wrote:

Quote:

Sorry to interrupt this 'Parents Debating Society', but do you really expect us to believe that its sheer pot luck if your child turns into a killer/delinquent/drug abuser/gang member?

Get the f- outta here.

Sorry stick up and your point is what exactly?

Happiness · (#35 (**permalink**))

This is an interesting thread.

I am still trying to digest alot of what has been written - especially by Vezz and Kunjufu. I am alsotrying to relate this to the reality of my life in the USwith my own child.

I'm not even dealing with anything close to the issues that are being addressed here.....so either I am being lulled into a false sense of security by my child and the worst is yet to come(doubt it)....or there is such a different social dynamic at play in the UK which does not factor into life in the US.

Afterall the kids here are also exposed to the rap culture. confused3

Vezz. · (#36 (**permalink**))

Happiness wrote:

Quote:

This is an interesting thread.

I am still trying to digest alot of what has been written - especially by Vezz and Kunjufu. I am alsotrying to relate this to the reality of my life in the USwith my own child.

I'm not even dealing with anything close to the issues that are being addressed here.....so either I am being lulled into a false sense of security by my child and the worst is yet to come(doubt it)....or there is such a different social dynamic at play in the UK which does not factor into life in the US.

Afterall the kids here are also exposed to the rap culture. confused3

...but you have, at least, a 30 year head start on us here, plus there are a few different dynamics at play.

We have youth being given asylum from war-torn countries...but no counselling. These youth have no fear of death, probably due to the horrors seen in their countries. Most of the stories here involve someone from abroad.

We have "home-grown" youngsters being fed a subliminal "assimilate or die" message, but their teachers treat them like shit. They look for a role model but have no father or, if they do have one they don't feel like they connect, so then the gang becomes their family, and their only aspiration is to look like some rapper.

Hell, we don't even have ghettos anymore....they've been bought by the middle classes! Even the Asians have those!!!!

I personally feel the young feel they do not fit in here.

Just my take on it.