[align=left]I'm in a contentious mood today, so I'm going to put forward a proposition influenced by RESS and the Thread by Soulstarr and ask for views on this.....btw this is NOT a criticism of these people but rather a broader questioning of a trait that i know exist within our community, and asking is it past its sell by date... I'm going to give three quick scenarios to illustrate my point and then put my question out there.....

Case 1: An African male trough a lot of circumstances most of which were self inflicted, finds himself up for disciplimary in his job, at the first hearing he is represented by a white union rep, who to be truthful.. Did defend him hard as he recognised that it was a lost case. At the 1st appeal, the African man bring in an African litiation friend to defend him.. Far from picking holes in the case in order to exploit some Obvious weaknesses in the employers case.. The African litigation friend, acts like Petrocelli, throws his weight around, roughs up the witnesses so bad that the chair of the hearing has to step in to stop his cross examination. He then gives it to the Chair to and anyone else in his sights...

Conclusion: case lost employers arguements for sacking upheld....
Ps..same thing on a different scale happened at the Tribunial with the same results in favour of the employer..

Case 2. African woman, has child taken from her by Local authority, again by and large through self inflicted behaviour, although the local authorities case is strong, it could be challenged with a competent solicitor.. However This African woman rejects two good solicitors because they weren't 'black' enough..ie they did not aggressively challenge the local authority.. In the end said person decides to represent herself, by and large she makes the reprsentatives of the authority sweat, but again oversteps the mark in aroused emotions, threats and the such like...

Conclusion..Child made ward of court.susequent appeals against the judgement upheld in favour of the local authority.. Child gone fullstop..

Case 3 African female Student on work placement; admittedly suffers racism and is setup by her supervisor who is to be honest a numbskull. However it is also true that said student is clearly not competent for the work is supposed to be gaining experience in. however
rather than deal with the issue effectively, or get her pass grade, she begins to openly insult the very supervisor charged with grading her... she refuses to comply with direction given on the job, and treats the supervisor with obvious disrespect, distain.. The proverbial as they say sunptin sumptin hit fan, and the work placement knowing that the supervisor was largely at fault in the first place, overlook this. and focus instead on her obvious unproffesional behaviour. They call her to a meeting to discuss the issue, my girl decides to have her say cusses everyone clean.. and is subsequently terminated from the work experience..

Conclusion..said student would be lucky to pass qualifying course she has embarked on...and has effectively wasted 3 years..

All of the above are true stories, although i have obviously left out, and altered certain facts to avoid breaking confidences or identifying people..

My point is this..I have noticed a tendancy by some African/Black people to reach too quickly for the race card, and then too quickly for the cuss ignorance strategy to cover their mistakes time and time again...and I have to be honest i have never EVER, heard or seen an occassion where this strategy/behaviour works in favour of the person behaving like that...NEVER!!.

Now there was a period back in the late 70's in the UK when in certain public bodies one could use the 'Race card' and people would run literally for cover... However those days have long since gone.. Times have moved on, and whilst the Black community has gotten more adept at fighting our corner generally, there is still an ardent few I believe who forget that White folks also look and learn too...and they have also moved on and become more refined..

So the days of rah rahing people, or using the race card as a deterent orto rough people up, just won't work, i argue in 21st century, especially in a post 9/11 climate...

So is it time to stop using 'Ignorant' behaviour as the FIRST and sometimes ONLY line of defence when we get into problems, whether its our fault or not?...I suggest that doing this almost always makes our position WORSE and rarely if ever better....

Discuss...
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Too true and agreed on most points. However I dont think it's a case of overlooking the need to pull the race card; if this is the case! The point is to challenge it professionally, and in a manor which will not have white folks rolling their eyes and thinking 'here we go'.As you stated it hardly ever proves fruitful when people cannot articulate self without resorting to stereotypical views (i.e) the cussing and the shouting, throwing weight aroundAlas some folk just cant help it or are not accustomed to more effective ways of expressing/challenging the powers that be.

Also reminds me of an incidentin court when a y/p's gran would not STFU. Turns up 1 hr late and proceeds to interupt andargue with the judge in true old Black woman style and all sorts. Some people just wont be told confused3

BFG: I agree with you, some people just won't have it... you know i have could easily fill this forum with clear examples of when our own people have literally shot themselves in both feet, by looking to cuss first and THINK later...

I can think of another example of another colleague who got an Email that she took to be disrespectful on the grounds of race, she asked me for advice on what she wrote, she gets bex with me when i'm trying point out that cussing people clean as a 1st response is a disproportionate response..

Kunjufu;
I wonder if you understand that what you are really asking for, is the solution to just about all of Black peoples problems. For surely if all of your questions can be answered, the solution is in hand. I will offer my own thoughts, but it would be far better it those who have been in the situation and reacted in a way similar to what you described would honestly share what they were thinking and feeling.
My thoughts:

Many Black people stereotypically are uncomfortable fighting with their brains as opposed to physically or orally (cussing out someone).
Possible reasons for this could be:

Cussing someone out provides instant gratification. Black people are not accustomed to working long term toward a goal. A great many Black people live hand-to-hand, day-to-day.

Black people are used to not having, therefore blowing an opportunity to finally have something is akin to blowing a fantasy – it was a hope, it wasn’t really real in the first place. This is especially true if the person didn’t feel that they had done enough to really earn it.

Black people are very gullible - when it relates to White people, they really believed the B.S. about working hard and earning what you get, plus a great many other B.S. stories, religious and otherwise. The fact is; you use whatever means and methods are available to you – legal and slightly otherwise to get yours. Anyone doubting this please read the histories of all the richest families. That other stuff is what the haves tell the have-nots to insure that they never have. It’s a rough world out there; the winner gets to tell the story.

However, many unintelligent Blacks think this bit of truth means armed robbery, Drug dealing and the like – they lack the intelligence to understand that is counter-productive. We must all aid the Police in getting rid of them – it’s us that they prey on.

Far too many Black people consider Whites to be the essence of intelligence and learning. They feel that they can’t compete successfully.

Jim: are being serious or are you taking the piss?

The subject is far too serious to be frivolous.
If you disagree, please do so point-by-point.

Jim: I disagree with some of your points, however my question was to clarify that your very FIRM views were honest and not frivolous stereotyping of our culture.. I won't comment at this time and will await the responses of others first!

This is true, sometimes we can be a very emotional people. However, being in the workplace for a number of years has really taught me quite a bit aboutthe psychology of the average european.

I do know one thing for sure, is that when they try to antagonise you even in a covert way, one thing they CANNOT bear is being ignored. There's just something about an African not even giving them a glance that really gets under their skin. I know this from personal recent experience. One woman whom I suspect is a racist was being deliberately rude on a few occasions and rather than give the reaction she wanted, I just replied with a few nonchalant sarcastic remarks and totally ignored her after that. Now I notice she tries to go out her way to be nice but I'm simply not bothered. It's not as if I'm in the building every day anyway.

Unfortunately I have known of Africans flying off the handle without thinking and it's totally gone against them. One of my sister's friends did this and now she's paying the price.

There is a way to handle these things if and when they arise, but some of our people need to learn that you can't rah rah as if you're in your yard!!

Quote:

sometimes we can be a very emotional people

... and some of us come from a certain background where we feel as though we're under attack when we aren't or at least aren't not in the way we think and so defend ourselves in the best way we know how.

Considering what we are going through its easy to see why, social pressures and what not.

Kunjufu wrote:
In the real world people who are suffering Racist Abuse at work find it difficult to accept it as Racist abuse for fear of being accused of using the 'Race Card'.



White Racist management were responsible for all that happened to that man classified as Black.



The 'Race Card' is the only true card in an Institutionally Racism which is the same as a White Supremacist controlled environment.