(I have to post this in two parts as there is a characther limit)

part 1

Gmahogany,
My statement was that no self respecting white person, be they a white supremacist OR a regular white person who did not VIEW themselves as a white supremacist, would be having the conversation, that supposedly PRO BLACK folks seem to obsess over having, regarding finding angles to date/marry OUTSIDE their own friggin group.

You still are not getting it!

Pro white essentially means 'Actively attemptinng to maintain your position in the socal and economic hierachy and doing so at the expense of other races 'which you deem as inferior', History has shown that 'that' kind of person HAS taken non white partners, because it is a 'power thing', though it is less likely that one would do so these days.

A 'regular' white person wouldn't be having this kind of discussions unless they had some kind of supremacist notions.

Likewise a black african who considers themself 'racist pro black' would never seriouly consider having this kind of discussion in a african supremacist forum, but not all of us in this forum is racist, or a supremacist because we realise that :-

1) Entire 'races' cannot be better than other entire races, it's down to the individual (god knows many white people have done more for us that certain black people).
2) That (racist) kind of thinking is a old white colonialist view to take, hence the ''Don't compare ourselves to white supremacist''.
3) That kind of thinking only serves to distract us from getting where we are going and aids weaker member of our community to engage in that which they live for, to point their skiny finger at other black people who are 'sheep minded' like themselves.

Black people who don't consider themself racist thinks that this is a perfectly legitimat question to respond to because we are living in a county in which we are in the minority, stands to reason that there will be some level of IR between us and other races.

Those that refruse to understand the reality of this and spend their time bi@ching about it waste the time and effort. It is just a reality of people being people.

It only becomes a problem if all of us did it, or if you don't consider mixed race people as being capable of being or considering themselve 'black africans'.

Either way, I never have nor will I ever promote inter-racial relationships, what I will say, is if I am fortunate to find someone which I 'click' with, I will not let there race dictate whether I have a relationship with that person anymore than I let it dictate with whom I live and associate.

And anyone who doesn't like that can plant their lips on my butt. I am my own boss and will do what I feel to do and I don't feel to be dictated to by a bunch of phonies.

Some need to learn that people are a little more complex than a skin colour.


Black people thinking that Black people should want to be with other Black people is not a "Black" form of White Supremacy. It is NORMAL and natural for most other groups of people,(except Black people ,apparently).

Emphatic Noooooooo! on that one!

There is no racial group upon this earth, that I have had more arguments with than my own, more specifically, with yardies and wannabe gangsters. It isn't even as if I go out of my way to interact with theThey hear your accent and think that gives them a free pass to try to take the piss.

So as black person, I want to live with black people who have similar values and outlook on life as me. I don't want to live with people just because they are black! That is a recipe for disharmany and not from my end.

Why the hell would I want to live in a community in which I am constantly arguing with my neighbours and have to 'watch my back' as I am walking down the street with my kids because some 'low quality piece of fly sh@t' would think NOTHING of killing me in front of my kids, most probably killing them too, it would give them much desires street cred to take out a couple of kids!

Any black person like me knows that if you don't have their slack assed, materialistic, screwd up 'values', you aint going to come out of such a mixing unscathed. And so you have a situation where some black people are forced out of the comminity to live around others.

This forum is a great example of this, I have seen decent black posters reduce the frequency of their post because the ' sh@t kicking, ghetto minded gangbangers or lost wannabe black militants of the net gang up and pounce on their every word (this is unique to the black community and the source of our lack of togetherness).

If this happens on the net, imagine what it is like out there in the real world. So some of you lot actually create the vary situation (the fleeing of black people from the community) you claim to dispise, by the mere fact of your complete intollerance and stupidity.

I GET SICK OF POINTING OUT THAT 'THAT' KINEOF BEHAVOUR JUST WORKS AGAINST US...WHY DO SO MANY HERE HAVE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING THIS

With all our 'cultural' songs that have lyrics telling us to 'Show love to each other,and all the people slapping themselves on the back for being 'cultural', why does this message fall on deaf ears?

How can anyone who thinks this way consider themselves 'pro black'?

Too much caveman anger and a lack of understanding productive ways to vent it.

No one group has done more to divde the black community in the west than the 'G's, the 'yardies', and the 'wannabe pseudo weekend black militants'. which explains my total and un-appologetic dislike of them and my consistent raving.

Chris Rock, whilst a comedian, is right, there is a civil war between us:-

YouTube - Chris Rock - Who's more racist? black people or white people

If I was a member of his audience, I could clap and laugh without feeling uneasy because he isn't covertly talking about me, how many in that audience and indeed in this forum felt a little uncomfortable.

Of course there will be some that think he isn't talking about them, because they do 'shoot up the screen' or anything so extreme, but Rock is talking about something far deeper, a certain type of mind,

(a) the mind that seeks to blame all our problems on white people insted of taking responsibiliy for what we have allowed to happen.

(b)the mind that thinks all things ghetto, must automatically mean all things black and worships 'thug life'.

(c) the mind that thinks working for a white man makes you some kind of 'sellout' and slave to the establishment.

(d)the kind of mind that things 'jungle' mentality is cool.

(e)the kind of mind the feels a need to 'fcuk up' all black gatherings,with their non stop violences, childish behaviour and 'hard man' poseing. stopping us for forming connections with each other.

(f) the kind of mind that 'prays' on other black people.

(g) the kind of mind that doesn't appreciate education and prides itself on 'ignorance' and ignorant attitudes.

(h) the kind of mind that thinks 'white people can get away with doing this, so we can to, never mind whether we are 'established or not'.

(i) the kind of mind that thinks that every 'face to face' confrontation with black people (and non black people) must be solved with either throwing insults or with violence.

(j) the kind of mind that thinks 'militancy' and anger towards everyone not as closed minded as itself, is some how, pro black.

I know I'm fighting on the side of black people, both in her and in the real world and this forum, to me anyway is 'hostile ground'.Sad that should be the case in a forum for us, but some of us just can't play well together, yet scrach their heads at the fact that we aren't united! AMAZING!

How many people in this forum can say that they don't go out of their way to try and make others feel unwelcomed purely they perceive our situation from another view point? A group of people who all think the same, will never grow in any way, and nowhere on earth are people so 'closed minded' and 'oppressive and within our community and we are the ones who need an infusion of new attitudes the most, angry black person, hasn't really worked for us too well in the past has it?

Thank god for the influx of continental africans, it give us black africans who don't fall into the 'angry, wounded, ghetto, hood rat millitant, hell bent on the distruction of everyone, including themselves' category. Hey, don't hate me because I speak the truth and ALLWAYS WILL!

Now your ''NORMAL'' depends on what normal is for you, is it normal for black people living in the depora to speak english as their first tongue? I have notice that continental africans who come over to the west have little intrest in interacting with white people beyond their need to work and earn cash to send back home. But black people in the west have allways, to some degree, grow up around white people and have inter-acted to some degree with white people on a daily basis. We have grown up looking at magazines with white people on the cover and watch tv show staring white people.

part 2

I don't think that Garvey was teaching Black Superiority, anymore than I think that Elijah Muhhamad was teaching Black Superiority. Both men were trying to UNTEACH, BLack INFERIORITY.

Please don't get me wrong on this, I have nothing but the highest respect for Mr Garvey, a man wothy of the title MISTER and my hero. If more of his country men followed his advice, then maybe the jamacan political structure wouldn't be over run with coolies and white people maybe, no definatly, I would wear the jamacan flag with pride.

As for the coolie know as Elijah Muhhamad, he can kiss my ass. I have no need for another distraction. Black africans learning arabic and following arabic customs.....am I the only one who think that this is not pro black, when there are so many african languages and customs to follow? Cha cha nonsense.

Since Black INFERIORITY, by it's very nature is predicated on WHITE SUPERIORITY, they had to address/discuss/deconstruct WHITE FOLKS. White folks were NECESSARILY going to be the reference point, thought not necessarily the focus. That's what people get twisted. For Muhhamad and Malcolm,fARRAKHAN ,Black folks were ALWAYS the focus/concern, any references to/about white folks, was a means to an end, to get to the psyche of BLACK PEOPLE, and jolt them out of their slavish,exaltation/worshipping of white people.

Of course you can't promote black issuse without dicussion the mindset of the white establishment, that doesn't mean that you must percieve all white people as having that mindset. White racist perceive black africans as having a certain mindset, are their beliefs of us acurate? No! It's just not a good idea to hold these beliefs when living in a country surounded by white people, not that I am saying trust them, god know I don't trust many of them, but the same is true for many black people.

But we aren't established enough nor loving of each other enought to be self sufficient in the west. And we never will be if everyone has sterio typical veiws on how we go about our lives. How many black owned businesses are there in our community that we can work for? Not many, our young all want to get into music or sports.

Again we need to get the ABC's right first!

As I said before, I don't give a damn if we have to use monkeys as our guide/model, if they are doing some shit that works, and what we are doing isn't working, I would be all about the monkey model,lol. Beggars can't be choosy.

In the past I have used examples of things other cultures are doing that we are not, and it didn't go do too well here. Apparently some people don't like having the sucess of other 'races' brought to their attention, even if it could help us. Can you see the problem with this kind of thinking....evidently you can!


Whichever dude's quote, LeMoor was cheerleading/cosigning, and I don't think it was yours. If it was yours, however, than I was referring to you.

I'm not sure of what point you thougt LeMoor was 'cheerleading', but maybe he came to the conclusion himself, sense after all makes sense and is glaringly obvious to those that have open themselves to it.

I know I don't talk lame, and anyone who feels to try to 'put this coconut in his place' will be attempting to do so, not because I am talking crap, but because my views don't reflect their sterio-typical view of 'tough guy militant'.

I have no need of creating an 'image', I have evolved past that 'slave' way of seeing myself. But feel free to attack... this coconuts 'internet kung fu' can withstand most hate filled challengers and doesn't conflict itself, unlike many of the posters on this forum!

I must say this is one of the more intresting threads I have read.

I am thinking about starting one in the same vain titled ''Can you be a black muslim and still call yourself pro black?''

It may seem 'off topic' but it isn't. It is at the heart of both these topics is this question, 'Just what can you 'get away' with doing and still call yourself pro black'?

Macolme X made it acceptable for people to be black muslims and be consider pro black, but he was a member of NOI which is a black supremacist group, but what about other muslims who arent NOI?

They seem to think that they can get away with 'riding on 'X's shirt tails'. Just because 'X' was a type of muslim.

Many black muslims seem to think that they can 'walk both sides' by worshiping mecca and africa, I know where my spiritual home is....where are their's?

I know the people I call brother and sister are of the same race as me, or atleast part of them are, but can we trust a group of people who has arabic and pakistani 'brothers' and 'sister's'?


Historically, arabs have never been friends to black africans and I know most certainly know that pakistanis are not my friends or a friend to anyone who is of my skin colour. I can't say it is too comforting to know that there are another group of black people who could and would sell my ass down the river because their power and money hungry arab masters ordered them to do so and they 'like good little sheep' seek to have '30 virgins in the after life ( just thinking of what you will have to pay the CSA should put you off!).

I know most cirtainly I WOULD NOT TRUST SUCH A PEOPLE!

But I have never been keen on coolies or their puppets whatever their hue!

It's just not possible to serve two masters, and we all know people being the chicking sh@ts that they are will, be looking to ensure their comforts in the other life and less concerned with what is going on in this one. That is why religon and (coolie ones at that) are so dangerous.

People talk of trust, but I'm not aware of any black man ever strapping explosives to himself and killing other black people, just because his white partner told him to!

Some black muslims have and will continue to do so (kill black people in the name of islam VARY ANTI PRO BLACK!) because ultimately, you and yours are not his brother nor his sister if you are not a muslim! No matter how what they say. You don't get that kind of thinking in other religions, except the JW's, but they don't deal in fatwahs!

The black muslim takes his orders from the local mosque and from mecca. If a black person insulted islam, we would see where their loyalties lay.

What can be more powerful than a group(islam)that speaks to the spirit of a person?

The fact that we (africans) are not at the 'steering wheel' of that particular ship is not a good thing, But who is at the controls? You friendly local black hateing arab!

Even if a black muslim dosn't take part in extreamist views or behaviour,(and I know the vast majourity don't can you really trust him? What if they were called into action, what would they do?

Arabs have an awful lot of money, and a strong hated of the west so can you honestly say, you can trust their motive and the motives of those they 'comand with the aid of the koran? I'll leave that one to you guys!

September the 11 and the so called 'War on terror', what the hell does that have to do with black people? Nothing really, but I have seen more the a few black faces arrested and being sought over terrorist activities.

Funny how they risk/give life and limb for their coolie brethren...the exact same brethren who wouldnt spit on them if they were on fire.

Some black muslims only seem to come out the woodwork when someone attacks Islam, nice to see that they show brotherhood in this department, but why is there so much talk of islam in here. I don't see anywhere near as much talk about chrisitanity or anyother relgion.

You would think that islam was a black african religon and the two go together like 'bread and jam', I can't but help think this islam name droping is a form of covert recruitment.

ALLAH WHATS YOU....TO FIGHT IN HIS ARMY!

I'll be join up some time real soon...honest!

The only reason mulims pay black people any mind at all is because they realise how stupid, docile and lost so many of our numbers are.

We are easily fired up into doing all manner of self defeating actions in the name of islam, and totally deposable, just like a paper cup, just throw it away when you have finished using it!

Why do you think they worked so hard, and continue to do so, to convert africa. An entire continent of people, willing to die for their cause!

Wow, that would make islam incredibly powerful and us incredibly stupid!

The way some of these 'muslims that happen to be black' act, you would think that arabs came to our rescue when white people invaded africa!

Did this happen? Maybe my history is lacking some crucial eliment that explains this? These black muslims have just replaced one 'foreign' master with another one with slightly darker skin. Ooooh, at this rate is will only be a few thousand years before we are actually ready to listen to a black man! lol!

I just don't see how black muslims can hate white people so much for what they have done to us but be so keen trust african hating arabs and their coolie ways.

Smacks of conflict, glaring contradiction, double standards and just good old fashioned poor thinking.

So none of us should feel too sanctimonious or sumg with our position.

But hey some people are so blinded by anger towards white people , that it is easy for the muslims to 'jedi mind trick' them into not seeing that they (islam) is no friend of black africans either!

How can anyone change their entire lifestyle for some religon of people that hated us so strongly? Worst yet, raise their kids in it? Then talk about pro black? WTF????

It's all very darwinian, 'The weak (minded) will perish or atleast be sorely disappointed when they get to arab 'heavan' and allahs first words to them are 'Get you black ass into the toilet and start scrubing darkie!'

The End of the Pro-Black v. Relationship Thread?
The diversity of views in this thread is amazing. The original question was: Is it possible to be PRO BLACK and have a partner who is not BLACK? Answers seemed to fall into three main categories:
Category A – No you cannot.
Category B – Maybe, depending on the circumstances.
Category C – Yes.

There was, however, a small minority opinion (of which I am a part) that wanted to flesh out the value of Black/Black relationships as far as they relate to advancing the “cause.” I will hereafter refer to this minority group as the X Factor. Some posters immediately threw X Factor inquiries into Category C (i.e., Yes, you can be Pro-Black and have a partner who is not Black).

X Factor Posters, however, were only guilty of:
1) Asking that we “explicitly begin to define what it takes to be down, rather than what makes you a sellout?”
2) Asking for what could make a person consider themselves pro-black?
3) Asking, “What are the practical benefits of dating/marrying only Black people?”

None of these questions carried with them any intrinsic preference for dating/marrying non-Blacks but that is how they were perceived. In varying degrees these posters were accused of paving the way to date white women. It was implied and explicitly stated that the very nature of even considering dating/marrying anything other than Black, was a sign of weakness, confusion, disloyalty, self-hate and/or stupidity.


The Dilemma of the Black Intellectual
It should be noted, however, that the questions outlined above were not the mad ravings of self-hating Negroes craving white flesh but, rather, the natural thought patterns of the INTELLECTUAL. Don’t be alarmed readers; to designate one’s self an “intellectual” is not what you think. It is not a self-aggrandizing pat-on-the-back indicative of an overblown sense of mental self; rather, it is a classification of thinkers who enjoy exploring multiple sides of issues, even if their hypothetical streams of thought run contrary to their own personal beliefs.

The intellectual frequently tramples upon widely embraced values and enters into taboo territories. He does this not because he is necessarily more ‘intellectual’ than anyone else but because he enjoys exploring the various dimensions of hypothetical scenarios. He likes to follow ideas to their logical conclusions to see where rabbit holes lead. To some, he is a visionary thinker whose ideas may change the world; to others, he is an intellectual masturbator consumed with amusing himself with his own social witticisms. Moreover, as Cornel West describes in Chapter 5 of his book Keeping Faith, the Black intellectual, because of his esoteric thinking, is often marginalized from the Black community. Occasionally they are proud of him for being able to do what he does, but they do not understand him and thus, they criticize him (e.g., W.E.B. Du Bois, Cornel West, William Julius Wilson, just too name a few).

The Intellectual & Cultural Criticism
I didn’t know there was such a thing as a Cultural Critic until I had the privilege of studying with Cornel West. He showed me that there has always been, hidden beneath the surface of everyday ordinary social discourse, a suppressed form of intelligence that schools do not teach and that the American establishment is afraid of. This is the mental frame of the Cultural Critic. He/she is an assessor of culture and society and of all of its institutions (i.e., social practices). This form of thinking is also known as Critical Social Theory, which can be defined as: social theory or analysis that seeks to bring about human emancipation, “to liberate human beings from the circumstances that enslave them.”

When I learned of this type of thinking I knew that I had possessed it from an early age. It occurred to me that a host of other Africans possessed it as well but, its existence is not taught at a basic educational level. Nonetheless, just as some are gifted in math, some in the sciences, some in language, some in emotional intelligence, and some in finance, so are there many youth gifted with the untapped attribute of social intelligence.

How do we test this theory? Imagine that every Black child were exposed to the basic elements of Cultural Cristicism or CST at an early age. What if they were taught how to evaluate all of the major social sciences, including economics, sociology, history, political science, anthropology, and psychology in grammer school? Naturally, they would be directed to consider how these institutions oppress or promote Black people world-wide. How many of our young would show early signs of being socially and politcally aware, and gifted with social intelligence? And, if such an undertaking were initiated, how many revolutionaries would emerge after two or three generations? It could greatly accelerate our revolutionary curve with new ideas and models of social emancipation.

We intellectuals, cultural critics or whatever you choose to call us, have always been with you. We have been a part of every African kingdom throughout history and every Continental or Diasporic African community can boast our presence today. In the history of societies all over the world, we have always been most valuable and visable right before revolutions and renaisances. Read the history and check the record for yourselves. We will never fade and our presence will continue to be felt.

To all of my critics: If you let me do my thing, I will let you do your thing. And, when we are wise, we will see the value in each other's gifts and not criticise.

My name is Neferkare. I'm a Cultural Critic.

Peace!

@RLB
you have hit on a very sensitive point indeed Christianity and Islam have both contributed to the enslavement and oppression of the African and if we take things into perspective they both fall into the same pot and should be equally castigated.The silence might have to do with Islamists being a minority group in the US and UK so people might be weary of sticking their oars in
On a global scale Islam has been a contributory factor to the current predicament of Nigeria and Somalia and many others.Nigeria could have been a benchmark for African and Black empowerment they possess all the resources to make it a superpower but tribal issues aside Islamism has dragged the country down other non muslim tribes have been butchered in the Northern part of Nigeria for allegedly insulting the koran which supports your point of Black Muslims killing their brothers in the name of Islam.Furthermore this group of people have been in power more than any other tribal group you draw your conclusion on what has been the major contributory factor for the predicament of the biggest nation in Africa since Independence?
Somalia too would rather destroy their country in the name of Islam than fight for a African cause.

Was there any part of Bernie Grant which wasnt Pro-Black?

Have i been unrelenting and disloyal in my search for a possible "angle" do you think? What about subconsciously viewing the, "dating/marrying/reproducing" amongst our race as "unnatural" perhaps? Does this mean im possibly "adcocating" and yearning for ALL pro-black folk to, "date/marry/set up home with white partners"

How depressing.

On the “Can you be Pro-Black & a Muslim” Question:

Are you familiar with the Emperor of Qin? He was an ancient ruler of China who set out to unify five warring Chinese kingdoms. He was successful but his fragile unification only lasted until about the time of his death. Following that, the region was plunged back into civil war. Nonetheless, Qin’s efforts had one very powerful effect on the region. People of different ethnicities developed a common nationalistic identity. Today, China takes its name from its first emperor, Qin.

History shows that, unification efforts are extremely effective in the forging of national or land-based identities. China had Qin and Europe had the Romans. Even the Muslims forged common identities through unification goals, i.e., the Mughals in the Far East, The Ottomans in the near East, etc.

But, Africa’s warlike period was at its height under the Egyptians and resurfaced briefly through the empires of Songhay and others, but since then it has been relatively peaceful. History shows that Europe & China, however, have experienced long seasons of warfare and conflict resulting in heightened nationalistic sensitivities and the forging of common identities over hundreds of years. How else did Europeans, an excessively warlike people, stop fighting and agree to invade Africa. Nationalistic unification ideology had been floating around Europe for thousands of years; first with the Greeks, then the Romans, then the British and most recently Adolph Hitler.

Africa has witnessed very little in this regard. Consequently, yes, it is easier for foreigners, foreign religions, and other foreign practices to pit Africans against one another. They do not see themselves as a connected people or as having common goals. Naturally, anyone would respond, “How can they not see their common goals, threats, enemies today?’’ The answer is quite simple:
--The HISTORY Africans learn is derived from books and histories written by their former colonizers.
--Many city-dwelling Africans administer LAW while wearing the white wigs of the colonizer and practice European legal policy.
--Most African countries list a European or Asian (i.e., Arabic) LANGUAGE as their first official language in world almanacs.
--At present, Africa is culturally at war with itself. Many African still aspire to be culturally European because they believe their own CULTURE to be inferior
--The ECONOMY [ies] of Africa is [are] shaped by, influenced by or controlled by Europeans or Asians

I could continue with this list but I think you see my point. Is it any wonder that the Motherland is vulnerable and in need of great repair? Fix the above issues and Africans will forge a common identity.

On Islam and religion in general:
Africans also practice RELIGIONS that carry with them foreign cultural values.
--We need a new strain of Islam (AFRICAN ISLAM) that will practice the principles of Islam with a high degree of devotion to the welfare of Africa.
--We need a new strain of Christianity (AFRICAN CHRISTIANITY) that will practice the principles of Christ with a high degree of devotion to the welfare of Africa.
--Likewise, we need the INDIGENOUS RELIGIONS to develop a consciousness that transcends the village and/or community, and that promotes a high degree of devotion to Africa.

I understand your point, RLB, and you have been very open about the fact that your disdain for Muslims has reached this forum as a kind of rant. But, you must know that Islam and Christianity are in Africa to stay. I am looking, perhaps too optimistically, for a way that Africans, with all of their diversity, can co-exist under one nationalistic paradigm. But, of course, who am I to lecture native Africans. I only present these ideas as a means of fleshing out solutions.

Therefore, my answer is YES, it is possible to be Pro-Black and Muslim.

This is very interesting.

Plenty of good science fiction can be regarded as cultural criticism. Philip K Dick is regarded as paranoid about society by some. Since Cornell West was in The Matrix this is exceptionally appropriate.

Isn't it obvious that Mr. Spock is an Uncle Tom Tom alien just like Tonto and Kato.



Here is some free sci-fi social criticism for you.

Star Surgeon by Alan E. Nourse - Project Gutenberg

The Status Civilization by Robert Sheckley - Project Gutenberg

The first is about racism, the second is more general. Sometimes I think Black people take status games more seriously than palefaces, at least Black Americans. LOL

But we all have to deal with the NAZInomic.



umbra

Neferkare,
Anything said in good conscience and with the right motives, should never be questioned in the way that it is. Whether you think in terms of A,B, or C isn't the point, if the intent of your posts are to promote some kind of interspection then it can 'only' be considered pro black.

Whilst there are many here who think that they are part of some new breed of black militants, they are actually little more that cheap 50 cent knock offs, without the cash.

Either they hold tightly to the foolish posturing and poseing that fcuk up our community in the west or they proudly display the idiotic lust for 'in-fighting' of our ancestors which originally caused our 'fall' from the top.

It would be great if high brow logic could wake some of these people up from their nighmare of stupidity, but even the most gutter based insult goes over the head of those too daft to understand it, so what effect do you think logic and reason will have?

Imagine that every Black child were exposed to the basic elements of Cultural Cristicism or CST at an early age. What if they were taught how to evaluate all of the major social sciences, including economics, sociology, history, political science, anthropology, and psychology in grammer school?

I totally understand what you are trying to promote, YES our kids do need to learn how to think on differnt levels, at this moment in time, too many of them think in a limited way ,as do some here, and that combined with youth naiveity and the enviroment we are in, makes for prison or the morgue!

One of the most importanat traits of being pro black is saying what must be said even if others don't like or want to hear it. We are'nt here to make friends, we are here to discuss our situation and move forward. Those that are, WILL, those that aren't WILL NOT.

As I have allways said, image and attiude are some of our biggest enimies, the only one bigger is the stupidity of an embarrasingly high number of those in our comunity just fail to 'get it'.

....it (“intellectual”) is a classification of thinkers who enjoy exploring multiple sides of issues, even if their hypothetical streams of thought run contrary to their own personal beliefs

That is just the kind of thinking that is needed, its all to easy to only perceive things from a vary limited view point, opening yourself to different lines of thought, allows you to explore uncharted seas and can help to re enforce what you already belive or change you views entirely. We will not grow as a people untill we do this yet too many have a vary steriotypical view of what african is. It isnt a way of thinking, dressing, talking or walking,

''Black intellectual, because of his esoteric thinking, is often marginalized from the Black community, but they do not understand him and thus, they criticize him

The intellectual frequently tramples upon widely embraced values and enters into taboo territories. He does this not because he is necessarily more ‘intellectual’ than anyone else but because he enjoys exploring the various dimensions of hypothetical scenarios. He likes to follow ideas to their logical conclusions to see where rabbit holes lead. To some, he is a visionary thinker whose ideas may change the world; to others, he is an intellectual masturbator consumed with amusing himself with his own social witticisms''

I can say that the above could easily disscibe me.

Unfortunately, all your words will go straight over the heads of those too thick to understand them. They will fall back on that old trusty sand-by and lable you 'coon' as that is about as 'deep' as they are capable of going.

P.S.

I am, have allways been and will die, as cultural critic!

astmartin

If we take things into perspective they both fall into the same pot and should be equally castigated.

If read any of my previous posts, you will see I am not fan of christianity. But I think the difference is that Islam requires you to associate yourself with mecca and learn arabic and follow customs and style of dress where as christianity does not make such requirments.

I have seen far too many black people walking around dresses as coolies, cant really say I have seen any black people dressed as a christian!

On a global scale Islam has been a contributory factor to the current predicament of Nigeria and Somalia and many others.Nigeria could have been a benchmark for African and Black empowerment they possess all the resources to make it a superpower but tribal issues aside Islamism has dragged the country down other non muslim tribes have been butchered in the Northern part of Nigeria for allegedly insulting the koran which supports your point of Black Muslims killing their brothers in the name of Islam.Furthermore this group of people have been in power more than any other tribal group you draw your conclusion on what has been the major contributory factor for the predicament of the biggest nation in Africa since Independence?
Somalia too would rather destroy their country in the name of Islam than fight for a African cause.

I hear you on that one. Hence my dislike of islam and the invisible hold it has on some of us!

Le Moor
(Have i been unrelenting and disloyal in my search for a possible "angle" do you think? What about subconsciously viewing the, "dating/marrying/reproducing" amongst our race as "unnatural" perhaps? Does this mean im possibly "adcocating" and yearning for ALL pro-black folk to, "date/marry/set up home with white partners"

How depressing.)

There is this insane belief that if you answer 'yes' to the question posed by the thread, then you must automatically be trying to convert the whole african population into 'going' IR...WTF?

I have not read a single post that promotes IR and hope I never will.

Few are more anti IR than me, not because I belive it is wrong or (right for that matter) but because I know if care isn't taken (that is, if your to thick to understand its coplexities) then you can most definately create a child who will grow up to be self hating and more anti black than any white person.

You only have to go to any mulatto forum, to see that this fledgling 'neo mulatto movment', is nothing more that a white supremacist movement for people who aren't white!

A group totally consumed by european gene percentages and maintaing or trading up is skin shade? WHAT?
When IR goes wrong...it goes pathetically wrong!

Why would any pro black person promote this?

In my opinion, no. It makes no sense for a person to be pro-black and marry someone from another race. A pro-black person would want to marry another black person and have only beautiful black kids to continue the bloodline. What kind of pro-black person would want kids who look half of what they are? It just makes no sense. There are mulattos who actually look completely white, so our genes are not always dominant. I just can't have kids who don't look black. I'd rather them be albino.

Just Say No...... I make a GENERAL response, covering points made by several people, and you can't wait to rush in and respond to ME, but I'M, insecure?LOL.

I have nothing to be insecure about, I made my point and made it quite effectively. I made it so effectively, that I didn't even feel COMPELLED to respond to what you and your cohorts have written for the last WEEK,lol. When I don't respond to something, it either means that the person hasn't made any points that I feel, warrant a response, the person's responses are too tortuous and nonsensical for me to completely read, or I've just become bored with the discussion and feel there is nothing else for me to say. If and when I feel there IS something else for me to say, I say it. I'd hardly say that constitutes me "having my say at the expense of others",lol. If only I had that kind of power...............

Yep the debate has gone on long enough.

And BTW, to anyone that made a long ass post or quoted a long-ass post - I didn't read ya!

Did you read that definition of a "Black" intellectual? Yep, the er. . ."intellectuals" are the ones who challenge the beliefs of everyday "Black" folks.

Umbarchrist

Thank you for the, cultural-criticism-through- science-fiction, links. I am a big sci-fi fan. I do recognize, however, that my passion for sci-fi is a bit of a cultural anomaly. Few of my Black friends like sci-fi and, I have heard it said that Black people, overall, do not like sci-fi. I recently copied an article that suggests that, among the Black novelists of the world, sci-fi is the least favored genre (i.e., Kali Tal, "That Just Kills Me": Black Militant Near-Future Fiction, Social Text 20.2 (2002) 65-91).

All things considered, Gene Rodenberry engaged in a very direct form of cultural criticism in the original Star Trek series. More recently, however, the movie The Matrix took cultural criticism to a new level with a plot that could rightly qualify as Critical Social Theory. Its critique of power structures that operate below the surface of normal everyday consciousness was incredible. And, I believe the movie to be a sound metaphor for the world that we live in today.

An exercise involving the critique of power structures through sci-fi might make a CST curriculum for kids more interesting.

Good Lookin’ Out!

The peculiar thing now is the extent to which Technology is CULTURE but most people refuse to think of it that way.

It is becoming a contradiction. All non-technological cultures are obsolete but the technological cultures are destroying themselves with the stupid use of technology.

I loaned a Black woman Wild Seed by Octavia Butler. She gave it back to me saying it was "too wierd" and that she didn't even like the cover. When I started reading sci-fi at age nine my mother said it was "something crazy."

I expect the crap to hit the fan this century. The Black Cultural Box is too small to handle the future.

Rather funny that Black Man's Burden was written by a White man.

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umbra

...while i agree wiyth the above...kunjufu's Q and my response is a yes...