..or said another way, Equal but not the same. In the argument of whether men are equal to women or women equal to men but bring different things to the table, I see this as a contradiction and a false statement in that it also assumes all men are the same and all women are the same.

As such, I see men and women as complements of each other as the word equal brings connotations of power, superiority and inferiority. If what ever the currency a man brings 20% to the table and a woman 80, or a woman brings 10% and the man 90, as long as the both make the total then it's the final total that equates to equality, not the individual components brought to the table - and as a natural consequence the concept of being independent is a complete and utter gimmick.

So are men and women equal, if so in what context?

The three words to consider:

Equal - showing or having no variance in proportion, structure or appearance.

Same - being the very one; identical.

Complement - something that fills up, completes, or makes perfect.
The quantity or number required to make up a whole or one of two parts that complete a whole or mutually complete each other; a counterpart.

Incognito..The power of language and ignorance which inflects most people. Take on things they simply don't have the slightest understanding intellectually. Whoever said this society needs and educates people to be fodder was on the money.

One book I remember as an undergraduate which I use to this day in its revised versions is Equality by John Rawls..Read that and most folks will shut the fxxxk up. My man goes through most definitions and concepts of equality and the implications etc. Suffice it to say most men or women, especially know what the raas they are talking about..because the white man's media has never told them what the terms or concepts actually mean...

Peace..

Fred - I believe that in the wrong hands the word equal is a very powerful weapon because it conjures up connotations of superiority and inferiority which only leads to conflict. Equal is looking out for itself where complement is not.

Incognito..Come back to ignorance, and arrogance dressed up as education.
On the money the way the term is used on a popular level is more as a tactical resource or political resources used to achieve specific or general objectives by women as some tactical working the angles against unsuspecting men to achieve essentially very selfish goals or objectives. In other words whatever they want in nom morally or practically consistent fashion.

Tayanese made an excellent on point observation on the other thread about Not Dating Black Women in the UK black women have seized on this weapon with passions of a demon and more so than any other social group...Nuff men from other groups take some of that stuff on, but will not have it in key areas and the women know it too.

I have never met a woman who wanted any form of equality as I conceptually understand any concept or theory as it relates to that issue that I learnt as an undergraduate. Women want what they want, when they want it and see it part of the modern female prerogative of the 'Have it all ' generation

Never met one yet who had any moral consistency where these things are concerned, and what makes me laugh they did not even try to defend their chat on any level to show at least they felt actually strong enough about it to represent..Shit just collapse rapidly..This is why I said elsewhere that many category of brothers better mind themselves, because when they are trying hard to be good men or just following suit in terms of the men who have influenced them in the life in terms of standards and norms..They may get their arses bitten out..because they will get done every which way..Because it is basically all about 'me' or her. All the rest is the angles or things used to persue or mask that.

Example. First sister I lived with and my long time woman prior to the wife..When we decided to live together, sat down and did everything by the book. No assumption of me playing any kind of traditional role. I know how I am raised and what I believe, but at the same time I let her decide to a major degree how things were to go. We agreed how we would pay bills etc, how we would save money etc..

Just before moving in because I got the place and moved out of London first and waited for her to come, she told me she wanted her name on the rental agreement which was no problem at all; but threw me because that type of stuff really never came into my mind and it was also completely out of character with her and I knew her friend had advised her and could probably tell you which one. Anyhow the first month's pay day of us being together and quite excited really. A wonderful woman a new challenge etc.

She came in with a massive bags, so many she could hardly carry them..They were full of Clinique products which just came out and she had been shopping in the west End. These were the new must have products bro and in total it cost a bomb. She also bought other stuff, including a shirt for me which I knew came from the heart, but my cynical male self said yeahh that is to soften the blow..So all the 'put the shirt on so I can see how its looks' stuff just to sweeten the licks I would take next day.

When we sat down to sort out money and bills, my girl start to cry off in her girly voice that she spent too much on this that and the other so basically I would have to cover her share. From the first month bro. Now can you imagine me or you with most black women in a comparable situation pulling shit like that. Someone is going to hear about it, if you the man directly or at least one girl friend on the briefing; because when they move in with man they set up almost women's committees consisting of girlfriends who are phoning all excited every day like it is a movie, as if they want the blow by blow of what its like living together..My name and reputation as a man would find its way in North Dakota being laughed on..as a typical irresponsible, low breed, broke arse Nxxxger..

Listen years later same pattern was in play if not this thing, it was another. Years later I was going through papers and it dawned on me my girl did not have her name on one bill. All were in my name. So fast to put her name down on the house, but slow to apply that same sense of accountability and responsibility elsewhere, and of course when she came up short which was what she did she knew I would pay it. What are you to throw your woman out regardless of whose name is on the papers,end the relationship. She was a lovely woman, very warm and genuine and giving and probably too much when you check how she spent money, as well as basically financially ill-disciplined and a woman who liked nice things..

Best of both worlds when it suited her, because she knew I was traditional type and raised that way, she knows my family long time. She knew she did not have to lose sleep about me covering for her and she wasn't going to get beatened or killed for it..My wife was a little pusedo feminist when we were in our early days but she shut that shit down one time, when she realised if she wanted play the equality card we play down the line which no intelligent woman wants in the real world..That makes life hard and they soon realise that and its less time for them to spend their time, resources and money how they want when the opportunity arises.

A lot of these women chatting equality aint got no serious men or any calibre or any at all or actually dealing with the day to day nitty gritty of lfie..Soon shut that shit up trust me..

I told you about the one and my wife then girlfriend when she asked me how I felt about if she kept her name if we ever married..Just feeling me out. and me saying cool with me as long as she did not expect to gain from my father's estate which is intrinsically tied to that name..and any wealth it creates..Soon closed that shit down...Did I say something Even today I just shake my head and laugh how my wife gets me to do things which have no moral consistency or anything..Simply she don't want to do it, its hard, difficult or just can't be asked and it becomes my job. I drove nearly two hundred miles this weekend shopping and family stuff. My wife got her licence long time before me but will refuses to drive on principle..The principle that she don't wanna do it which is a woman and wife's prerogative. But when we are back home bredrin..Sun Glassess, nice dress, Jeep and flossing and she is missing in action..

The trick is to not take this equality shit too seriously as Elephant man say its the new dance around...just women being women trying a thing...If you love your woman and vice versa you let her play and just shake your head and laugh knowing where your boundaries are and collect all the IOUs she has amassed when trying to take the piss out of your intelligence. By trying and succeeding in most cases getting away with it. But being the man I am she is the wife and able to take the piss, where other women would dare to tread and why she aint my baby mother. An indiction of service rendered or soon to be rendered when I pull my cards..As I always tell my wife she owes me at leat two women and I am not joking. Tell bredrins when certain men have to hide woman from their wives when and if I so choose I am blazing me around the town and my wife aint seen or heard nothing..because that's the least of her problems when I start to make demands the amount of liberties she takes with me.

Freddie - man I've had this argument with so many women and for the most part, other than having a 9-5 with the ability to purchase material gain, there is no other expansion on what makes the two sexes 'equal'

I was in one argument and you get the usual stuff about being intimidating where I went on to describe the difference between intimidating and intimidated where the latter is usually just a reflection of the lack of depth compared with the former (man I need to start putting these quotes of mine in a book)

But you know what the real joke is, all along it has been me trying to prove this wrong with every other man (also known as the respecters of women) being the same ones telling me I'm the fool and all women are 'the' same. Man I was in one debate and these respecters of women pu$$ysuckers were almost giving me the signal that I need to stop selling them out by giving me that cut-throat kill the convo signal with their eyes lol.

When I'm there telling homeboys if I have a house or a car I expect the woman I meet to also have a house and a car. now this does not mean these things have to exist it's more the mentality behind it and this is the key difference, where I'm thinking I'm proud that a woman of mind can hold her own, it turns out that the mind behind doing that is completely different.

It's like I've been trying to put a particular mentality into a brain where it can't fit and only now kind of accepting respect is allowing women to have their opinions as part of every other fickle interpretation that is part and parcel of that makeup. Who the cap fits mind you. I'm still a believer in the exceptions to the rule

But then this is the paradox, I get many brothas telling me I'm an exception to many rules so maybe there is equality I just haven't found what I would call equal to me