Welcome to the African and Caribbean Social network.
You are currently are in guest mode which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access other features. By joining this free African Caribbean Social utility you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), upload images, add videos, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, join the African and Caribbean community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
|
 who is stanley crouch? |
|
|
 |
BNV Managing Editor
|
|
Posts: 7,778
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: , , United Kingdom
|
|
|
who is stanley crouch? -
04-03-08, 12:46 PM
been watching the hiphop vs america and one critic on the show is called Stanley Crouch.
what do African Americans think of him and why
from wiki he supports Bill Cosby's critique of Black American culture
please could you give more info on the columnist please
Think outside of the box...Think in spirit
Act as if it were impossible to fail!!!
|
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 1,765
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
|
|

04-03-08, 01:37 PM
I don't have time now, Lady, but I will later if no one else beats me to the punch.
"I ain't scared of u mutherphuggers"-Bernie Mack
|
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Leader
|
|
Posts: 5,359
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: , , United Kingdom
|
|
|

04-03-08, 03:04 PM
Stanley is one of the most attractive men in all of Africa-dom!!! Nothing like bright pink, dry lips on a dark face...........yum!
But seriously I have read quite bit of his work,he's often to be found sparring with Playthell Benjamin who is someone I REALLY RATE,in fact I think they co-authored a book on Du Bois.
This is certainly not a comprehensive description of the man im sure G will fill in all the gaps when she has time.
I aint asking for nothing,just open the door and i\'ll take it myself-James Brown.
|
 |
|
|
|
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 3,063
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: , New Jersey, USA
|
|
|

04-03-08, 03:56 PM
Crouch is yet another hypocrite who gets paraded on tv to say things that he probably doesn't beleive.
He loves jazz/ blues.....but conveniently forgets how both genres of music were under fire from "respectable black folks" during their time......and how these artists were the first to bring drugs into black communities...........but he gets on tv and points fingers at rappers.
|
 |
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 1,765
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
|
|

04-03-08, 04:24 PM
D and JB are correct. LOL at the pink lips thing. There are very few people that I ever come across that i can't find anything redeeming about as far as their looks, but Crouch is one of them.. That is one unattractive dude............ain't no way around that,lol.
He is a social/cultural critic and "Black intellectual". As D said, he's a huge jazz/blues aficianado and somewhat of a jazz purist, like his buddy Wyton Marsalis. They both detest hip hop/rap and view it all as modern day minstrelry(I agree with them about some rap, I disagree with the fact that they don't distinguish which is which). As JB said, he and his fellow intellectual Playthell Benjamin have had some mighty debates about hip hop. Benjamin is more a defender of the genre and has an understanding of the nuances where Crouch does not.
Crouch also also has a hint of anti-African ness to him,imo. I've picked it up in things he's said over the years. I would say his attitude towards Africa is similar to someone like Whoopi Goldberg's attitude(ya'll ponder on that for a minute,lol), and not unlike a pretty big swath of AA's, come to think of it. He sees AA's as a unique entity unto themselves(which i agree with), but he doesn't seem to perceive or want to perceive our connectedness to Blacks from elsewhere, in the midst of our
uniqueness. (which I don't agree with).
I actually have seen him be much more fierce and on point than he was on the Hip hop vs America thing. He was as weak as i've ever seen him on that show. There were points he could have and should have made against some of the B.S. some of the rappers up there were spewing, and even some of the stuff that Dyson was saying in defense of hip hop, that he missed,imo.
P.S. One thing he TOTALLY gets points for, is when he was editor of a prominent jazz magazine, calling white jazz critics out on their tendency to elevate white jazz musicians ABOVE their ability or competence level. He hit that ish right on the nail.
"I ain't scared of u mutherphuggers"-Bernie Mack
Last edited by Gmahogany777; 04-03-08 at 04:27 PM.
|
 |
|
|
 |
BNV Managing Editor
|
|
Posts: 7,778
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: , , United Kingdom
|
|
|

04-03-08, 07:38 PM
mmm quite interesting.
Think outside of the box...Think in spirit
Act as if it were impossible to fail!!!
|
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 3,326
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Washington DC, , USA
|
|
|

04-03-08, 07:54 PM
I respect him,because few critics dare hold a mirror up to hip ho.But on tv tends to come off as the grumpy old man. That genre needs critics under the age of say thirty to be effective.
|
 |
|
|
 |
BNV Managing Editor
|
|
Posts: 7,778
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: , , United Kingdom
|
|
|

04-03-08, 10:18 PM
are there any people critical of stanley crouch. where can i read stanley crouches work or critique
Think outside of the box...Think in spirit
Act as if it were impossible to fail!!!
|
 |
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 1,765
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
|
|

04-03-08, 11:08 PM
Here are some thoughts on him........
The bull in the black-intelligentsia china shop
HE CALLS TONI MORRISON A FRAUD,
AFROCENTRISTS "LOST" AND GANGSTA RAPPERS
"THE SCUM OF THE EARTH." BUT ACTUALLY, CRITIC
STANLEY CROUCH IS A SWEETHEART.
BY AMY ALEXANDER | CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- On a chilly April night in 1996, two years before she high-tailed it to the West Coast and the synergistic frontier, Tina Brown invited several hundred of her closest friends to a party at Harvard University. The occasion was publication of a special New Yorker issue, "Black in America," edited by New Yorker staff writer and African-American studies impresario Henry Louis Gates Jr. The issue's lineup of guest writers, artists and critics represented a Who's Who of black glitterati: actress and director Anna Deavere Smith on black women inmates; award-winning novelist John Edgar Wideman on Chicago Bulls bad boy Dennis Rodman; Columbia University law professor Patricia Williams on female Harvard Law School graduates, and Gates on Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan.
Buried in the back of the thick issue was a writer who seemed somewhat incongruous among these swells. But critic Stanley Crouch's exploration of Duke Ellington's lasting contribution to American culture was easily the most trenchant and well-written piece in the issue. Ellington "understood the blues as both music and mood," Crouch wrote. "He knew that those who thought of the blues as merely a vehicle for primitive complaint had their drawers or their brassieres on backward. The blues knows its way around. It can stretch from the backwoods to the space shuttle, from the bloody floor of a dive to the neurotic confusion of a beautifully clothed woman in a Manhattan penthouse. The blues -- happy, sad, or neither -- plays no favorites."
As the "Black in America" edition hit the stands, the burly writer departed his Greenwich Village digs for Harvard and the gala surrounding the launch of the special issue. Before C-Span cameras in a packed auditorium at the Kennedy School of Government, Crouch joined black theologian and philosopher Cornel West, writer Jill Nelson, New York Times editorial writer Brent Staples and NBC News correspondent Gwen Ifill in a discussion of the roles of blacks in mainstream media. More than your typical round of academic navel-gazing, the panel managed to achieve new heights of public theater -- and added to Crouch's bomb-throwing legend.
"You see," Crouch offered, winding up for a trademark riff on race, demagoguery and the sorry state of the American press, "when you look at a nutcase like Louis Farrakhan ..." At this, the usually serene West blew his Afro: "Why do you have to call the minister out of his name? Don't you know you diminish his humanity when you use words like that!" The sniping exchange that followed was a brief flash of red-hot tension in an otherwise polished discussion. Everyone in the room, from publishing executives, heavy-duty eggheads and bigfoot journalists to self-consciously grungy students, seemed surprised at the flare-up. Everyone except Stanley Crouch, of course.
Some two years later, that episode is a classic entry in the pantheon of Crouchian lore, another small but full-color glimpse at the style and thinking of a successful middle-aged black man who follows few comfortable paths. Armed with an elephant's memory and a passionate knowledge of and engagement with art (blues and jazz especially, though not exclusively) and history (American, though not exclusively), Crouch delights in slaying the dragons of convention -- particularly those that guard the sometimes-insular world of black intellectuals. Crouch's troublemaking reputation was made with his first essay collection, 1990's "Notes of a Hanging Judge," which smacked the slumbering genre of race and cultural criticism out of its 30-year torpor. In that book he dared to eviscerate several African-American icons, notably Nobel Laureate novelist Toni Morrison, whom he fingered as a literary snake-oil saleswoman who "perpetually interrupts her narrative with maudlin ideological commercials." "Beloved," Crouch wrote, "reads largely like a melodrama lashed to the structural conceits of the miniseries. Were 'Beloved' adapted for television (which would suit the crass obviousness that wins out over Morrison's literary gift at every significant turn) the trailer might go like this: 'Meet Sethe, an ex-slave woman who harbors a deep and terrible secret that has brought terror into her home.'" And so on. This was, we now know, particularly prescient criticism, considering the bombastic outcome of Oprah Winfrey's recent big-screen version of Morrison's 1987 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel.
Crouch also took down filmmaker Spike Lee ("a nappy-headed Napoleon"), while championing young white artists like Quentin Tarantino, whose use of the term "******" Crouch defended in his next essay collection, "The All-American Skin Game." In a piece lauding another nontraditional black writer, Albert Murray, Crouch praised him for not being "taken in by ... the simplistic versions of heritage [or] protest that led to the political Zip Coon shows of LeRoi Jones, Eldridge Cleaver, and the like."
N E X T_ P A G E .|. Crouch's critics: He's a sellout, a race traitor and a loudmouthed cultural opportunist
I couldn't post the above page, cause I don't have a subscription to the site.
"I ain't scared of u mutherphuggers"-Bernie Mack
|
 |
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 1,765
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
|
|

04-03-08, 11:13 PM
Stanley Crouch Is a Punk
by Ron Hogan
Page Six, never one to let a good scandal die a quick death, gets around to placing a phone call to Stanley Crouch after his appearance on Tina Brown's Topic A, where she apparently asked him, "What did you do, you naughty man?"
"I slapped Dale Peck," Crouch replied matter-of-factly. "You bitch-slapped Dale Peck?" Brown squealed. "That is true," Crouch replied. "He deserved it."
(So, by the way, I apologize for characterizing it as a "suckerpunch" all this time. I was wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.)
In fact, literary society's newest thug seems to find it hard to shut up about the incident:
"All I can say is this — I've become the people's man. I've gotten many telephone calls. I've gotten so many commendations and accolades. For the first time I've been in New York, I feel like the people's hero."
Not that I have any great claim to the title myself, but I think I can say with confidence that Crouch--every word of whose novel that I've read is as pisspoor as Peck said it was, if not more so, and see for yourself if you don't believe me--is no "people's hero," not by a long shot. Terry Teachout has the right idea, both about Crouch's past output and his deserved fate. One would so dearly love in the future to hear nothing but stories of Crouch fuming outside theaters and nightclubs, screaming at the bouncers, "Don't you know who I am?" and meeting with quizzical stares.
Comments
Who the hell shakes someone's hand before punching him? Crouch isn't only a punk, he's a coward as well.
Posted by: The Significant Other at July 20, 2004 10:04 AM
Stanley Crouch. Tina Brown. As they say where I come from , they're a pair that beats a full house.
Let me second RH on the People's Homophobe's so- called novel. Awful
Any ideas when the Crouch moment will be over?
Posted by: birnbaum at July 20, 2004 09:17 PM
Not as long as the elite needs george schuyler types to tell them that rappers, white jazz musicians and Angry Negroes are the nexus of the worlds problems. The rest of the literary world is finally finding out what Black literary folks knew for about 25 years. From his haranges against James Baldwin in comparison to his barging into his funeral procession, to his creating the prototype for ass ignorant neo-con Toni Morrison criticism, to his black male supremacist jazz canon, to his reduction of billie holliday as a common whore( And I want to slap the fat mother****er for that one)to his gloating over Biggie Smalls death he's been conning and getting over on people by kicking Black artists ass since 1979. ( And this is leaving out his gloating over Richard Pryor's illness)
As for his novel, I got great uncles who,if you give them a week and case of thunderbird, could write out a better cultural novel than Crouch's . And where does he get off using Ellison and Bellow as an influence, with dull, dry and overwritten prose of his. Hell, I can write see spot run for 50 pages, call it a novella and say it's influenced by Chehkov, that doesnt mean it's influenced by Chehkov.
Sorry for the rant, I just hate Crouch.
Posted by: Robert Lashley at July 21, 2004 12:34 AM
Robert, no need to apologize (at least I don't think so).
The moment I am referring to is the spotlight on Crouch's blathering and thugishness (that so titillates twittering Tina— would she speak of the person who 'bitch-slapped' her for crimes against culture, as 'naughty'?) not his intellectual unmasking,which apparently, is way overdue.
Also. I think it's arguable that some elite is perpetuating the (current) Crouch story. Weblogs (at least the one's I read) are not shying away. I don't take it you are suggesting they are part of the 'elite'. Are you?
Posted by: birnbaum at July 21, 2004 08:50 AM
Sorry for the typos.
"I ain't scared of u mutherphuggers"-Bernie Mack
|
 |
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 1,765
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
|
|

04-03-08, 11:16 PM
pt 2
I think elite was too broad a word for me to say. The reason that Stanley Crouch has survived for so long is that he functions as an cultural indicator for a great deal of the literary population, telling them what they want to hear.
Now I am not saying that black racism hasnt been a destructive force in american arts and letters in the past 40 years, to both whites and blacks. Nor am I saying that gangsta rap isnt a destructive source to the black community. I'm not even saying that the PC Line that everything Morrison has done is genius isnt full of shit too (Imo her later books have faultered on faux Faulknerian structures, literary abstractions and her habit of straining to fit lyric into every damm situation).
The problem with Crouch is that there isnt a hint of nuance or restraint in his arguments. It's easy to tell a white audience that blacks are frothing at the mouth angry racist militants, but, taking into account a great deal of the black community's fundamental conservatism, it's also demagogic. Like every great author Morrison has her strengths and weaknesses, but to establish this line of thought that her ascendance is some liberal racist conspiracy is beyond hysterical. And if Crouch really wants to get rid of gangsta rap, he has to address the facts that damm near the only people who are black that are involved in gangsta rap are the people in the videos.
That's why I compare him to Schuyler. In the 20's he had a position smiliar to Crouch, telling whites that the artists of the harlem rennisance were inferior and that it was all part of a liberal conspiracy to make unworthy black artist rich. Nothing could have been further from the truth, for you will have a hard find finding a harlem rennisance artist , outside of Hughes, Hurston and Toomer, who wasnt starving. For a while that got his prestige and wealth. But another more liberal generation came along and saw that George was completly full of shit. The bloggers who are rightly kicking Crouch's ass are that generation for him.
As for Peck, I love his passion, but reason must be the servant of all passions. He has a sharp critical mind but his anger overcomes him at times. But there is no way in hell that he deserved what Crouch did to him.
Posted by: Robert Lashley at July 21, 2004 03:23 PM
Typos? To quote Anthony Lane and Billy Wilder, "Nobody's perfect."
Did I miss something—other than occasional reports of Crouch's bad
behavior, I am not aware that his critiques have been met with any scrutiny that even approaches the recent attention to his mugging of Peck and subsequent dick pulling. Admittedly, I only know of the usual suspects, Henry Gates, Cornell West, Nelson George, Elvis Mitchell and Greg Tate— none of whom I am aware have taken exception to Stan The- Less-than-Man's trademark rhetorical hurling. I would speculate that perhaps a certain sense of solidarity caused such restraint. But what about the academy? Has no one taken Crouch on in the very effective manner you have exhibited above?
Who is chosen as spokesmen for minority/marginalized groups, is a much bigger subject. I would be interested to read what you think made Crouch a cultural player. And more importantly, who is not being paid attention to because he is sucking in so much attention?
I used to feel the same way about Dale Peck— at least he was passionate et cetera. But the orchestration of his latest attack on undeserving Sven Birkerts (Peck announcing that his last negative review was to be published in Maisonneuve blah blah blah) left me wondering if his greatest skill and focus might be self-promotion.
Posted by: birnbaum at July 22, 2004 07:52 AM
Well I know that in the Salon profile of Crouch, ( Of whose news editor, Joan Walsh, I just love) Both West and George expressed beef with him, and so has Ishmael Reed and Quincy Troupe. And I know that from Crouch's articles that he had some issues with Greg Tate.
As for Crouch's popularity, to quote the first sentence of Susan Sontag's essay on Simone Weil
“The culture-heroes of our liberal bourgeois civilization are anti-liberal and anti-bourgeois; they are writers who are repetitive, obsessive, and impolite, who impress by force—not simply by their tone of personal authority and by their intellectual ardor, but by the sense of acute personal and intellectual extremity”
Crouch got a name because he's an agent provocateur, one of the squeakiest, most grease mongering wheels in the elite American literary landscape. Another thing why few people black have called crouch on it is that his appeal is central to men, and he’s a bully. Crouch had a base appeal for me 8 years ago when I read him during my senior year of high school, because the themes he hits on are exhilarating to the esteem. I remember first reading him and thinking “Yeah! Black culture is a whole lot more sophisticated than people give it credit for! Yeah! People should take it seriously! Yeah! No one should be a militant!” But the older I got and the more I expanded myself, I saw that there was nothing there, that yes, black culture is sophisticated but not like he says it is, yes, no one should be a militant but everybody who doesn’t think and act like him is one and yes, one should take black studies seriously but so should Crouch.
Take the Morrison essay. For all the hyperbole and names called for shock value, it reads like he's either so addled by ideology that the themes of the book pass him by or he hasn’t read the damm book at all. She's trying to make a ideological commentary on slavery? Yeah, the damage the institution did to mothers, daughters,husbands and the community. Morrison wasnt solely bitching about the white man. Now if you want to make an argument against the book, it can be the times she tries to play Faulkner and drown the narrative in abstractions( I’m a Sula and Song of Solomon snob). But serious scholarship won’t get anybody’s attention like ravings about "militant black feminist racists".
Or if you want another example on the other side of the spectrum, his obsessive fawning over Charles Johnson. I LOVE Johnson, and Crouch was right in trumpeting Oxherding Tale, one of the finest novels in the history of African American arts and letters IMO. But Johnson isn’t perfect, he didn’t have good endings of both Middle Passage and Dreamer, and forced too many messages in the former and too many plot lines in the latter. My point is that no writer is. Hell, the only book I hold in higher esteem than Invisible man and The Adventures of Augie March is the bible, but both Ellison and Bellow’s first person's narrations are a little overwritten. And both Middle Passage and Dreamer are damm good novels. My point is that if Crouch wanted to convince the reader that they should read Johnson, then he could have gone into detail about what he liked about his work, instead of giving fawning overdrawn polemical approval. Because without intellectual depth, excessive praise shows that shows that your really not interested in the work, that you are using praise as an aesthetic buffer from critical examination, shooing the novel away from your mind like it’s a bothersome fly.
But who needs subtle and detailed examination when you got a con going? It's should be noted that Crouch started out as a hard core Black nationalist and a devotee of Amiri Baraka, because even though Stanley went to the right later in his career, he never lost that sense of street theater, that understanding that a black activist can get a lot of mileage playing an Ideological S&M game with some Liberals. And thinking about it, Crouch's con game wasn’t that much different than Baraka's, just more nuanced( if you can stomach using the terms nuance and Stanley Crouch in the same sentence). Like Baraka, Crouch plays the race card when someone wants to actually challenge him as a writer and a person. He did it with the editors of the Voice, who wanted him to tone down the rhetoric and discipline himself like a writer. He did it with Teachout, who was right to call bullshit on his jazz criticism. He did it with Jazz times, who committed the unforgivable sin of wanting him to turn in copy on time. I didn’t think he had any issues with women, but if he harassed female editors then he needs to be slapped himself. If he did something to Walsh, then forget slapping, he needs his ass whipped.
Posted by: Robert Lashley at July 23, 2004 04:52 AM
Thank you, Robert Lashley, for your comments, whoever you are.
"I ain't scared of u mutherphuggers"-Bernie Mack
|
 |
 |
|
|
 |
Villager Senior
|
|
Posts: 1,765
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
|
|

04-03-08, 11:19 PM
Pt 3
I used to see Crouch's name on and off during the Seventies. No, I'm not and never will be one of those blk/cultnats. I knew his operandi as a jazz critic, but when I really waded into Crouch territory with "Notes of a Hanging Judge," I swiftly regretted paying the ducats I spent. I sold the book to a used bookstore in Menlo Park (CA) with a quickness. I just loathe the guy and the extravagant passes he's been given over the years.
Dale Peck's hit pieces sometimes made me laugh, either because I knew something about the author or had read or knew about the author's work. He brings an acid virtuosity to criticism; but he made me look at my own work (I'm a not yet published first novelist) more closely. There is such a thing as killing those darlings, you know. Peck loves Morrison to death, and I like her too. However, I know that sista girlfriend is NOT perfect. There were some times when I wished that a serious editor had been sic | |